Fox shotgun barrel

[GANGGREEN]

So I was visiting a dear friend this afternoon at his home.  He's an accomplished builder who has dozens of really nice guns under his belt.  He's also a great shot and as knowledgeable about muzzleloaders as anyone I know personally.  Sadly, his age and health are getting to him and he's prevented from building because of issues with his eyesight.  While discussing a nice smoothbore fowler in his collection, I mentioned that I really liked how he dealt with the octagon to round profile change on the barrel and he said, "Oh, I didn't do that, it's a Fox barrel.  I have another one if you want it".  Well, I wanted it and now I own it, but I'm not sure what exactly that it is.  I think it's a .58/24 gauge smoothbore, but were they made by the AH Fox Company of shotgun fame or was there a different Fox barrel company?  It's a breeched barrel with no touchhole and it will make a great little fowler, just curious what I'm dealing with.  It doesn't matter other than for reasons of pure curiosity.

As it happens, I also purchased two Getz barrels from my friend today, one a straight squirrel barrel in .36 and the other a delightful swamp in .50.  Always love visiting with this man and I'm thrilled with my purchases, but I have to admit that I'd feel a whole lot better about things if my friend ended up building the guns instead of me.

[Daryl]

Can't help you with the maker, "FOX", however I would like to see a picture of the barrel, especially the wedding band area.

[GANGGREEN]

When I get it in my possession, I'll try to remember to post photos.  It's really a pleasant transition.

[rick/pa]

Does it have a stamp of a sitting fox on the barrel?  I have one of Curly Gostomski's Northwest Trade Guns that used the Sitting Fox stamp on the barrel and lock.

[GANGGREEN]

Not sure.  I didn't notice that when I was looking at it yesterday, but I wasn't looking intently.  Like I said, I didn't take the barrel and intend to go back and grab it some day when I've got the cash, at which point I can check.  Who makes the barrel that you speak of? 

[rick/pa]

I think Curly had several barrel suppliers and might have even turned some of the blanks himself. His business was taken over by some one else when he retired but I think they're now out of business also. Here's one of his flyers from 1980.

[GANGGREEN]

Interesting.  If I could see the profile on one of those barrels, I could confirm or deny that they're the same.  Like I said, when I get it in hand, I'll update this post with photos.

[Hungry Horse]

Curly’s barrels back in the day, came from a myriad of sources, including some cottage industries. So the barrels could be any of several profiles. Curly was the only source of 24 ga. Barrels for many years. In fact his personal chiefs grade trade gun was 24 ga. With a 30” length.

  Hungry Horse

[T*O*F]

There is also a place called Sitting Fox Muzzleloaders that sells kits.  Lots of pictures.
Maybe you can match it up there.

http://sittingfoxmuzzleloaders.com/

[Daryl]

The Curly Gostomskui trade gun I had back in the 80's was a 12 bore and weighed 6 pounds. It was quite brutal to shoot.
I could never shoot it accurately due to recoil induced flinching and today, I still have to concentrate Oh-so-hard to not flinch
with any flintlock and of course, my .69 rifle.

[GANGGREEN]

 Thanks for the info guys.  Like I said, I'll get it in hand and follow up, particularly if there's a stamp on the barrel.  The bore's clean, but the outside has some surface rust and in a very quick going over, I didn't see any stamps.  I wouldn't think it has anything to do with Sitting Fox, because obviously they don't make or profile their own barrels and knowing the man who sold it to me, he has never owned a Sitting Fox (or any other) kit. 

[rick/pa]

Here's two pictures of the fox stamp and a view of the wedding bands on the Trade Gun I bought at Friendship in 1978.

[GANGGREEN]

There's only one wedding band on mine, but the octagon portion does transition in the same manner.   So, the question becomes, who sold the barrels or were they custom milled?  If so, by whom?  It doesn't really matter, I'm just curious.  For what it's worth, I didn't notice the sitting fox stamp, but as I said before, the barrel needs cleaned up and I could have missed it.

And that was a .58/24 gauge RickPA?

[rick/pa]

And that was a .58/24 gauge RickPA?

No, this is a 20 ga./.62 cal. I can't remember if there's any markings on the bottom of the barrel. It's been many years since I pulled the barrel.

[GANGGREEN]

Yeah, his ad says 20 or 12, but my friend who sold me the barrel swears it's a .58 (although he also referred to it as a 20 gauge and thinks .58 and 20 gauge are the same).  I didn't mic it, but in looking at the muzzle, I'm guessing his is .58/24 gauge.  Who knows.  He also suggests that it's very accurate with a roundball and that he's won multiple smoothbore shoots with it.  He's a much better shot than I am, so I believe him.

[Hungry Horse]

Curly made Quite a few  .24 ga. Barrels, and a few .28 ga. As well. The .28 ga. Barrels never truly got put into production, but he did make a few. A .24 ga. Barrel in the hands of a good wing shooter is mighty hard to beat on the trap line. They shoot a tighter pattern than bigger bores, but they shoot a longer string. Once you get that figured out, they shoot great. And you have the added advantage of being able to shoot a Civil War conical, for big thump at short range.

  Hungry Horse

[GANGGREEN]

Very nice, thanks for the info.  Looking forward to messing with this barrel and planning the build.  English fowler?  New England Fowler?  Northwest trade gun?   Hmmmmm.....I'm certainly open to some ideas and photos are always welcome.

Curly made Quite a few  .24 ga. Barrels, and a few .28 ga. As well. The .28 ga. Barrels never truly got put into production, but he did make a few. A .24 ga. Barrel in the hands of a good wing shooter is mighty hard to beat on the trap line. They shoot a tighter pattern than bigger bores, but they shoot a longer string. Once you get that figured out, they shoot great. And you have the added advantage of being able to shoot a Civil War conical, for big thump at short range.

  Hungry Horse

[Hungry Horse]

 You never mentioned how long the barrel is. That will dictate the time period to some degree. The short 30” barrels are generally late flint period, and early percussion. Barrels 42” and longer are generally flint, and earlier period. My old 30’ barreled 20 gauge chiefs gun shot well enough, but if I were build her now she would be 24, or 28 gauge. I would recommend a chiefs grade because it got more drop in the butt, and is less angular in the stock profile. These guns are crazy light, and can kick the snot out of you if they don’t fit well.

  Hungry Horse

[Bob McBride]

I have an old Bobby Hoyt 20g barrel marked with Bobby's shop name on the bottom flat and with the sitting fox in a circle on a top flat.

[GANGGREEN]

It's a longer barrel.  I want to say 40-42", although I didn't specifically ask or measure it. 

Also interesting that the sitting fox brand was seen on barrels coming out of Bobby Hoyt's shop.  So, the question becomes, who owned the sitting fox brand and was it used on multiple company's barrels or does it indicate one maker clearly?   

I'm hopeful to go after this barrel and the other two I've agreed to purchase sometime this week and I'll have a few more answers and maybe post a photo.

You never mentioned how long the barrel is. That will dictate the time period to some degree. The short 30” barrels are generally late flint period, and early percussion. Barrels 42” and longer are generally flint, and earlier period. My old 30’ barreled 20 gauge chiefs gun shot well enough, but if I were build her now she would be 24, or 28 gauge. I would recommend a chiefs grade because it got more drop in the butt, and is less angular in the stock profile. These guns are crazy light, and can kick the snot out of you if they don’t fit well.

  Hungry Horse

[Hungry Horse]

 I think Curly was the first to use the sitting fox on tradeguns. But clearly he didn’t copywrite it. It was a copy of an old trade stamp used on original antique tradeguns. Green River Forge used a couple of different versions of this old trade stamp, some of theirs were stamped, and the earlier ones were acid etched, and mostly on their locks. The lock they used was the old “Lott” lock imported from Italy. Curly used this lock on his early production guns as well. This is all well before any of the others that might have used a sitting fox logo.

  Hungry Horse

[GANGGREEN]

Thank you, that's the sort of information I was hoping to gather.  As I said before, I'm mostly just curious given that I trust my friend's suggestion that the barrel is a shooter (at least his "identical" one is).

[Hungry Horse]

Hey, its a smoothbore. If its not rough inside, or bent, or bored off center, its a shooter. Heck, Prior Mountain Bill Newton built tradegun barrels out of high pressure gas pipe, and they shot fine.

  Hungry Horse

[GANGGREEN]

Well, you guys nailed it. Sitting Fox stamp at the breech. Also some proof marks and a London stamp on the barrel. It's 36 in long and 58 caliber. Now I need to figure out what to do with it, I'm leaning towards a trade rifle.

[GANGGREEN]

Does anyone know what the proof marks signify?  Probably put on the barrel in London where it was made I'd presume.  I'd presume the B and P is "black powder only" but I'm not sure about the crossed lances or whatever they are.