Southern rifle lock question

[Stillwater Dan]

First off i just want to say hello to everyone here since i'm a new guy to the ALR forum .  So far iv'e just kinda been setting back and trying to learn whatever i can from all of you , but i figured it's time for me to jump on in with a post cause i sure could use a little help .  Not to long ago i ordered my first flintlock rifle , it's a .40 southern rifle . It comes standard with a large seiler lock . I have read here and there that lock would not have been historically accurate to a southern gun and a late ketland would be more the correct lock .  Is this the case and are there any pros or cons between the two. I can switch to a lock of my choice. Thanks for any advice you can give me .

[Daryl]

Welcome Dan.  Can't help you with the lock question, other than perhaps a Durrs Egg.
Seems to me, many of those had English locks.
Your handle - fly fisherman?

[MuskratMike]

WELCOME Stillwater. My SMR has a late Ketland. I love it and feel it is correct for my rifle that's what I have gone with. Understand SMR is a generic term for rifles made for the "back country" in the southern states. The year and school of makers really determin many factors on your rifle. There are many good books out there you might get that should help.

[rich pierce]

The Siler is a 1770s-1780s Germanic lock. The Late Ketland is not only English, it’s later. 1810-ish.

A good many SMR build I see are 1840-1870 in architecture but people build them with flintlocks. If that’s the architecture then the Late Ketland is less wrong than the Siler.

[Daryl]

There ya go!

[Stillwater Dan]

Welcome Dan.  Can't help you with the lock question, other than perhaps a Durrs Egg.
Seems to me, many of those had English locks.
Your handle - fly fisherman?

Nope , not a fly fisherman Daryl . Just live along the banks of the Stillwater river .  I gotta lot to learn .

[flinchrocket]

The only Stillwater River I know of is in MT.

[EC121]

If you look at Bill Ivey's book on Carolina rifles, there are enough Siler looking locks to say that style could have been used in the mountains.  I doubt the poor mountain folk looking to have a rifle built or a mountain gunsmith would throw away a good lock they already had in hand and buy a new round-tailed lock just to be in style.

[Stillwater Dan]

The only Stillwater River I know of is in MT.

I'm in western Ohio Flinchrocket . Darke Co. to be exact , the birth place and home of Little miss sure shot Annie Oakley.

[smallpatch]

Could it have happened? Of course!
But we must talk in generalities, and in general the majority of locks on Southern guns were of the English style.

[flinchrocket]

The only Stillwater River I know of is in MT.

I'm in western Ohio Flinchrocket . Darke Co. to be exact , the birth place and home of Little miss sure shot Annie Oakley.

Yep,that's a long way from Absarokee.
Use a English (late Ketland) and you won't have to listen to the,never was used,crowd.

[Clark Badgett]

The Siler is a 1770s-1780s Germanic lock. The Late Ketland is not only English, it’s later. 1810-ish.

A good many SMR build I see are 1840-1870 in architecture but people build them with flintlocks. If that’s the architecture then the Late Ketland is less wrong than the Siler.

Do you know of any available references for earlier southern rifles, especially those of the plainer sort. When I get around to building one, I want it to be styled more correctly for the classic Ketland.

[sqrldog]

May not be what you want but rifle # 194 in William Ivey's " North  Carolina Schools of Longrifles 1765-1865" may be what you are looking for in an early southern rifle. The Chambers Early Ketland (unbridled version) works well on this rifle. Joe Schell made a copy of 194 I call the Timber Rattler. A search should turn up Joe's version if you don't have access to the book.

[rsells]

I use Chamber's late Ketland  lock on my southern mountain rifles.  It is a very fast and reliable lock.  I round the back tip of the lock plate to match the profile of the Golcher round tail locks found on the original TN rifles in my area of TN.  It is still not an exact  copy of the original lock plates that I own, but can be made close by doing this modification.  Good luck with your build.
                                                                                                        Roger Sells

[Bob Roller]

A gunmaker in Appalachia or East Tennessee might have used a German style lock
if there was nothing else available.I had a SMR made in 1965 and it recently showed
up again here on this forum and it used the Ketland I was then making.Roger Sells use
of a Chambers Late Ketland and rounding the tail is a good idea and a good looking lock
on a good looking rifle.
Bob Roller (former lockmaker)

[B.Barker]

The English locks were used a lot in the south not just on SMR's. I personally think the late Ketland is a better performing lock than the Siler lock. If I had a choice I would take the Ketland lock myself.

[flinchrocket]

40 years ago you didn't have much choice. It was use a Siler or rebuild a new brand X to your purpose. Now, everyone has grown particular.

[Jeff Murray]

interesting observation from flintchrocket.  I have a 32 caliber southern rifle that is an absolute tack driver and death on squirrels.  it has a Siler lock which works very well.  it was also built over 40 years ago. 

[Eric Krewson]

I looked through most of the southern rifles in the ALR virtual library, Ketland locks were the most common but there were still a number of guns with Germanic locks, more than I thought there would be.

[hanshi]

The two SMR I own are flintlocks, one is a .32 the other a .36.  While the .32 has a Chambers late Ketland and the .36 has a small Siler they are both very reliable.  I've had the .36 much longer than the .32 and didn't give much thought as to the lock when the .36 was built.  My main concern, as always, is function, accuracy and other normal attributes of a good rifle.  I'm now a bit more informed about locks and have since used what I've learned to make sure the rifles are a little more correct.

[JCKelly]

It is my understanding Southerners in general were more inclined to trade with England for whatever. Pennsylvania gunmakers were of German origin & were more likely to make or by German styled locks. Hence a GENERAL preference for English style locks if one is building a "Southern" style rifle.
There are a set of 4 paperback books on Southern Long Rifles, by Jerry Noble, of Aledo, Illinois. Range from roughly 10 to 20 years old. You might want to find them somewhere. I like them because, among other reasons, I believe Noble to be honest.
My limited experience, and I guess reading, is that some guys south of the Mason-Dixon line had a different view of what constituted a "Swamped" barrel. There were Southern swamped barrels where the muzzle was larger than the breech. Here is my one and only example.
Bought this rifle because I liked the lines, otherwise knew nothing definite. I have since been told it was Virginian circa 1790, flint converted to percussion. .42 caliber 43-3/8" long barrel, heavily swamped. Muzzle 0.938", narrows to 0.832 about 8" back, then widens at the breech but only to 0.862.

Believe you'd call this an English styled lock

[MuskratMike]

Late Ketland would be my choice. Have 3 rifles with them and wouldn't change any of them!

[rich pierce]

“Southern rifle” sure covers a lot of ground. Seems most are answering as if the decades were 1810-1830 and region was Tennessee. Most of the new iron mounted Southern mountain rifles I see have architecture similar to percussion era originals.

I feel there’s a need for an Ashmore style flintlock and a Goulcher style round tailed flintlock. These are not available as a ready made off the shelf lock.

[rich pierce]

The Siler is a 1770s-1780s Germanic lock. The Late Ketland is not only English, it’s later. 1810-ish.

A good many SMR build I see are 1840-1870 in architecture but people build them with flintlocks. If that’s the architecture then the Late Ketland is less wrong than the Siler.

Do you know of any available references for earlier southern rifles, especially those of the plainer sort. When I get around to building one, I want it to be styled more correctly for the classic Ketland.

Clark, one of the most interesting iron mounted Southern flintlock rifles is sometimes called the whale rifle (though there’s another rifle called the Whale rifle. I’m going to build one like this soon. I need Paul Bigham to teach me to forge hardware first. I forget if this is attributed to a builder or area. The Chambers Early Ketland would be fine for this one.

[Frank]

Back in the 80s I used Silers on southern guns. Just rounded things off. Mainly the tail of the lock and the pan.