Engraving Tools

[old dog]

I thought I might find an engraving tutorial.  Could not find it, so here goes.  I bought a "Graver Kit" from Michael Lea several years ago.  since I could not even see the graver points, I certainly could not sharpen them.  A few years ago I purchased John Schipper's book, primarily for the pictures.The price of the book is well worth it just for the pictures.  Recently I have decided to challenge myself by taking the jump into engraving.  John's presentation on the art is straight forward and well organized for the simple mind.  John used a drill press stand to hold his work and stood while engraving.  I choose to sit and use a ball block vise that will rotate.  I recently purchased such a device from a well known company that does not perform as advertised.  Do any of you use similar devises to hold your work?  I have posted on Engravers Cafe without much help.  Look forward to your comments.
Old Dog

[T*O*F]

I choose to sit and use a ball block vise that will rotate.  I recently purchased such a device from a well known company that does not perform as advertised.  Do any of you use similar devises to hold your work?

Virtually all engravers use them.  I have 2 and both work fine.  Exactly what is your problem with yours and how does it not perform as advertised.  Both the companies who make them stand behind their product, unless you bought a Chinese knock-off.

[dogcatcher]

In my useless opinion, this is one of the best beginners guide to engraving on the Internet.
https://www.bladesmithsforum.com/index.php?/topic/24166-simple-engraving-for-knifemakers/

the sharpening jig, look at this




This guy is a little "loose" but finally gets his idea across. 

[Hungry Horse]

Once again you guys are worrying WAYYYYYY to much about graver angles, and micro measuring everything. I find most commercially produced graver blanks too thin and springy. The graver I like the best is made out of an old worn out chainsaw file, ground by eye.

  Hungry Horse

[old dog]

Some of you guys can make a silk purse out of a sows ear.  I cannot.  My silk purse always seems to turn into a sows ear.  After much research, I purchased a GRS Micro XL.  The ball would not rotate with a consistent amount of resistance over 360 degrees regardless of what I did.  They suggested I take out the brake pad.  "It just falls out", according to their literature.  It would not fall out.  I spoke with them on the phone and they told me they have to use a drywall screw from time to time.  They sent me a replacement which has the same problem.  The folks I have dealt with have ben very pleasant, but I am very frustrated at this point.  Can I get away with a table that rotates without a vise.  Can I hot glue my work to the table?  I am now considering a table and/or a low profile ball vise that does not rotate but uses a table.  Some gravers say they no longer use the rotation feature of the vise since they have gotten tables.  Anxious for your thoughts
Old Dog

[Acer Saccharum]

Old Dog: From what it sounds like, you are going to be doing hammer and chisel engraving? Chisel or graver in one hand, and tapped with a small hammer?

If that is so, you really don't need a graver's ball, but a vise that you can walk around. Why do I say that? Because you have tools in both hands, and not a third one to turn the graver's ball.

Let me know if my above thoughts are correct or not.

Tom

[rmnc3r]

After I sized up to a 5" vise, I used my old 4" X-Y Vise and made a turn-table outta scrap wood for my engraving vise set-up

Base is canted about 20*

[old dog]

Hammer & chisel.  I prefer to sit.  Hammer in one hand, chisel in the other, turn the vise with the heal of the hammer hand?  The knife makers site is very informative.

[Acer Saccharum]

You can certainly made something you can push around with the heel of your hammer hand. It's going to be hard to cut smooth curves with this arrangement.

I've seen potter's wheel arrangements where you rotate the vise using your foot. That would work for sit-down engraving.

[elkhorne]

old dog,
Do you happen to have that knife maker site url so we can hopefully understand what you were referring to above. Always looking for a better way to accomplish the engraving set up. Also do any have better luck with 1/8” HSS lathe/graver blanks than with the standard 3/32” graver blanks that most suppliers sell? Thanks for the help.
elkhorne

[Not English]

Old Dog,

I learned to do engraving with a hammer and long graver. I make my gravers out of 1/4 round stock about 7" long I use an 1/8" lathe bit inserted into  the end of the round stock. I sharpen by eye and try to lock my elbows in place. I use a piece of hardwood shaped to fit the piece I'm working on. The  piece is glued to the backer with 5 minute epoxy. It will let loose when needed with heat. I clamp it in a machinists vice that is mounted on an out side corner of the work bench. This leaves roughly 270 degrees of movement around the vice. The rest is taken care of by rotating the vice. A post vice would work even better. Obviously I  am chasing this standing up. I can't imagine engraving with a hammer and chisel sitting down. I know people do sit when using palm gravers but....

[old dog]

Elkhorn

It is in Dogcatcher's response up the page.

[Gaeckle]

Mike Lea teaches a class at the Log Cabin. I'm not sure of the next class date, due to all this covid stuff happening and shutting things down. The class is expensive, it is 3 days long at it is intense. Mike is very well prepared and will teach you how to shape, sharpen and keep the gravers sharp. Once you learn how to keep the tool sharp it's a matter of practice. At the class Mike has samples of engraved items, antiques and new to handle.

HH is right: you are over thinking this, but it helps to watch someone engraving and you don't need a lot of fancy expensive stuff. Take a class if you can. Just my 2 cents.

[old dog]

I would love to make Mike's class, but I am in Arizona.  Anxious to get back to my native Ohio, but not under present circumstances.
Old Dog

[Eric Smith]

Old Dog: From what it sounds like, you are going to be doing hammer and chisel engraving? Chisel or graver in one hand, and tapped with a small hammer?

If that is so, you really don't need a graver's ball, but a vise that you can walk around. Why do I say that? Because you have tools in both hands, and not a third one to turn the graver's ball.

Let me know if my above thoughts are correct or not.

Tom

Tom, I am very interested in learning to engrave a rifle. Nothing elaborate, just simple embellishment on a patch box or a toe plate, etc. I plan to go the old hammer and graver chisel route. Your mention of a vise setup you can walk around caught my attention. Can you elaborate more on this type of setup?

[Hungry Horse]

 O.K. Here’s the hillbilly engraving station for the guy that can’t walk around a vise on a stump. I made this for an old gun builder with bad knees. Build or buy a small work bench, preferably metal, this one started out as a Sears workbench that we literally cut in half. It ended up about two feet square. Make sure the top is good heavy wood around an inch thick, not particle board. You will need an axle (1” rod ) two 1” bore industrial flat mount bearings, three 1” set collars, and a small trailer tire, wheel, and hub. Basically you are making a potters wheel to engrave on. By pushing one way or the other on the tire, with your feet, you can rotate the work to make the desired cuts. The work is secured on the top of the axle in a little cheap vice, welded or brazed to the end of the axle. We used a piece of plate steel with a piece of key stock welded to it as a pallet for glueing the project down with Biondo. It works great.

  Hungry Horse

[JTR]

Old Dog, I have the big brother to your vice, and it has an rotation tension adjustment screw in the non-rotational part of the base.
In the websites picture of yours, it does as well. So have you tried adjusting it?

[dogcatcher]

Look for a potter's banding wheel, they come in all kinds of sizes, short, tall wide small etc..  You can use a glue gun to attach the item you want engraved, and you can release the glue with rubbing alcohol. 

[old dog]

You guys are fantastic.  Ya got a love that American engineuty, and Canadian.  Lots of great ideas.
I just spoke to customer service at Contenti.  He had spoken to the GRS rep and was told there is a recall on the Micro XL vise.  It is now on back order.  I am aware of the adjustment screw.  Wouldn't you think these things would be inspected before they leave the factory?
By the way, the Contenti folks have been very helpful with this issue.
Old Dog

[T*O*F]

Also do any have better luck with 1/8” HSS lathe/graver blanks than with the standard 3/32” graver blanks that most suppliers sell?

They both work fine.  There is more material to remove during the initial sharpening of the 1/8" so it takes longer.  Lindsay can supply an 1/8" collet for use with his templates.

Also, a graver will only cut as deep as the point.  A small blank with a fine point will be more consistent than a larger one with a fat point that digs in or porpoises when cutting.  Also, a small fine point has more springyness to pop the chips when cutting commas and like shapes.  The strength of the tip depends on its geometry, not how fat the graver blank is.

[jerrywh]

There are a couple of engravers on this forum who know what they are doing. Most of them aren't very good. I would listen to Acer or Tom Curran and Smart dog. Sorry that's just the way it is. Also Sam Alfano has a CD on hammer and chisel engraving. I strongly suggest you purchase it. My advise is don't take advise from armatures. Tom Curran is a very good engraver and could probably pass the masters test from the firearms Engraver Guild  of America. Believe me that is not easy to do. Sam Alfano also has a video on sharpening. Sam is one of the very best in the world. You can do chisel either sitting or standing. Standing is best if you are young and able. You will save yourself a lot of money and grief by buying Sams videos. Books and videos are never a bad investment. You can always sell them latter

[Acer Saccharum]

Golly, Jerry, you're embarrassing me, but thank you very kindly. I must say though, that I learned from the best. That would be you, Jerry. Early on, you'd told me the central premise of engraving, which seems obvious, but it's really not: "if you don't have a properly sharpened graver, you won't be able to engrave" and you have to be able to repeat that sharpening result all day long.

Now that's out of the way, let's talk a little about sharpening. Yes, you can make a graver out of a file, a tap, an old endmill, even bog iron if you're willing and able to smelt the iron into a suitable tool steel. And some guys and gals can hold a piece of steel to the grinding wheel, zip, zip, zip, and they have a working graver. Not me. I struggled for years before I took Jerry's class and learned about sharpening with fixtures, and quality tool steel for the graver bits. 

The thing about engraving is that you very often will break the tip of the graver. It's part of learning how to cut metal with a chisel. Points break. You simply cannot engrave with a chipped tip, no matter how small the chip is. The graver simply will not cut, or will not stay in the metal, and the graver won't follow your intended line.

With a simple sharpening fixture, Lindsay, for example, you can within a couple of minutes completely restore your cutting point. The GRS multi angle fixture is far more versatile, but complicated. Fixtures are about saving time and repeatability.

Bottom line is, if you're going to get serious about engraving, you will need to spend money on equipment. Hammer and chisel with an Opti-visor is far cheaper than a pneumatic system and microscope. Your tool outlay can range from several hundred dollars investment to ten thousand. Scale your equipment to your wallet and a realistic expectation of how much engraving you will be doing. As you gain experience and skills, you can add to your tool collection.

I recommend for most Kentucky rifle engraving an engraving hammer, chisel, a Lindsay fixture(you need to use 3/32 or 1/8 square tool bits) an Optivisor, and some diamond stones. An in-person engraving class is really almost essential to get you off the ground. It's really hard to learn from books. You will learn some good tips from YouTube videos.

[smart dog]

Thank you Jerry.  That was a very nice compliment and endorsement.  I would add Dave Crisalli and Ed Wenger to that list.

dave

[Eric Smith]

[davec2]

I will chime in here only in regard to one point......taking "in person" instruction from someone who knows what he or she is doing. 

I worked, on and off, for some 20 years attempting to teach myself engraving, without much success.  (I can give you photographic examples if anyone has the stomach to look at them).  After finding this forum, and looking at engraving by others that made me say, "#@!! $#@* !!!!  Someone can really do that by hand !!!!!", I conned.....I mean...convinced Jerry that he should just let me sit in a corner quietly and watch him work.  After a little convincing, he let me come visit and in a week he taught me more than I had been able to learn on my own in 20 years.....starting with how to sharpen a graver...well AND consistently.  He told be before I came up to Baker, Oregon that "I don't teach"....but he lied.....he turned out to be a generous and unbelievably skilled engraver and teacher.  The only person I have ever learned more from was my Dad....and he had 65 years to work on me.  Jerry only had a week.   

Bottom line, if you are serious about learning to engrave well...find a good teacher and go !!