Update-What components do I need to start Load Development?

[hmccaskey]

I have been on the forum for a few years.  Have received a lot of good advice here.

I have a bit of experience with a percussion 50 cal with conical bullets.  Never shot a  flintlock and just a couple of round balls. I have the ramrod attachments for 50 cal.

I am close to completing my 50 cal flintlock "kit" and deer season is just around the corner and I am ready to order components to develop a load.  I am at the final sanding of the stock stage.  Final metal finish can wait.

I bought this SMR kit (a bunch of parts) second hand and have made my share of mistakes while building but it's close to ready.

The rifle has a 42" GM 7/8 straight profile barrel. I installed a White Lightning vent liner. The lock is an older L&R Durs Egg.

I have Goex in FF and FFF.  I have cleaning patches.  I also have a Dewey
 48+ inch cleaning rod with adapters that i can use for a range rod.

I am compiling an order for load development as follows.

3/4 X 7/8 English Flint   - 6
.495 round ball   - 100
.490 round ball   - 100
.010 cotton patches  dry     -100
.015 cotton patches  dry     -100
.020 cotton patches  dry      -100
.018 Pillow Ticking   dry       -100
Mink Oil Tallow    8oz

What am missing?  What don't I need?
Do I order hand cast round balls or Hornady swaged round balls?

Thanks for your advice.

Hal

[Daryl]

1st off, I would make sure you have a nice crown on the muzzle - by nice, something like this:



I would not even try the tin patches, under .018" and that one, only with the .495"balls.
With the .490's, nothing thinner than .020" to .022" will work fine, likely.
Hornady or Speer balls will work just fine. There are other places to buy balls, like Trackofthewolf and others
I do not know about in the States

If this rifle is for hunting, then Track's mink oil will work fine, as will 100% Neetsfoot Oil (not compound)

You will need an adjustable powder measure.

If this is a hunting rifle, I would start at 80gr. 2F (I prefer 2f in rifles .50 and over - others prefer 3F) No, 2F does NOT foul
more than 3F with the ball and patch combinations I noted. If you want to use 3F, then I would start at 75gr.
You will likely find your most accurate load within 20gr. of my suggested starting loads.
If this rifle is for target shooting, then I would suggest a water based lube such as winter windshield washer fluid with a bit of oil
(neetsfoot oil) added to slow evapouration in the warmer weather. If does not hurt the shooting during the winter time, either,
which is why we use winter windshield washer fluid - it does not freeze on the muzzle like straight water or spit can.

Once you find your best "load" using the powder measure, make a single powder measure that throws THAT amount and attach that
to your horn strap.  Write down for record keeping, the load for THAT rifle in case you lose the powder measure you made.  Powder
measures can be made from horn, or range pickup brass cases, or from inter-fitting brass tubing from a hobby store. A simple wooden
plug can be CA'd into one end, with a drilled through hole for a thong.
The 2 on the far left and 2 on the far right of the top row, are from brass tubing. All the rest are range pickup ctg. brass with the rims turned off
and a screw-eye soldered into the flash hole.

[MuskratMike]

As usual just follow what Daryl said.
 I prefer the mink oil or 100% pure Neatsfoot oil over water base even when target shooting but that is just me. I would also start at 50 grains of powder, for a .50 I like 3F but again that is me. Your rifle will tell yow what it likes. You will need less 3F to get the same velocity as you get with 2F. try all the combinations and when you fine the top three redo them a couple of times. Now all you need are some targets and SEVERAL DAYS at the range. Don't rush this step and don't let your barrel over heat while testing. If it is a new gun sight in at 25 yards to make sure you are on paper, adjust you sights (east & west) then go out to 50 and start the load development.
Happy shooting and post some pictures of the deer you get.

[Banjoman]

Sounds like your on the right track. It's also very rewarding to cast your own round balls and make your own flints and powder measures. 

[moleeyes36]

Hal,

Definitely try both the 2fg and the 3fg powders.  While I use 3fg in some of my larger caliber guns with good results, I have a GM .50 caliber that really prefers 2fg for the best groups.

Don Richards

[flinchrocket]

I wouldn't bother with any patch material less than 0.018.

[Dale Halterman]

I would get more than six flints.

Dale H

[Panzerschwein]

Powder. Patch. Ball. Flint. A mark to fire at.

Don’t overthink it.

[Marcruger]

"Powder. Patch. Ball. Flint. A mark to fire at. Don’t overthink it."

I respectfully disagree sir. 

I believe that planning is important, as is thinking through the various options and having the right tools at hand. 

Load development, in my opinion, needs to be methodical.  Have a plan, and stick to it.  Change one thing at a time, so you know what made the change.  Record what you find. 

I personally don't care where on the target the groups are hitting when I start.  I am looking for a tiny group.  Then I move and file my sights.  A change in powder charge can and/or will change the vertical and horizontal location of a group. 

I agree with what Daryl wrote above, and he gave you a good plan to follow. 

One very very important part of the process is recovering and "reading" your patches.  My line in the sand is if I can see sunlight through a fired patch, then I need new patch material.  A weakly wovencloth to start is going to undermine your efforts.  Get a dense canvas.  Look for holes, scorching, and blow-outs in recovered patches.  Only with good patching will you get consistent and good accuracy. 

I hope this helps a little.   God Bless,   Marc

[Hungry Horse]

 I would start with a big target at 25 yards, shoot a few shots off the bench. I usually start with the same amount of powder as the caliber. and see if they are making any kind of a group. If you have to file or move your sights to get on the big paper do it, but just enough to get on paper. Now you need to hunt up some of those spent patches and check them for tears, or burn throughs. If the patches look good, you can start walking the powder charge upwards in 5 grain increments. You might not see much change in a 5 grain increase on the lower end of this, but it can make a more noticeable change as you get close to your service load. Read your patches after ever group is fired, to make sure the patching is handling the charge. Radical changes in size of the group should be noted, so you can evaluate what might be the problem. I wouldn’t do any changing of patching, or ball size yet. I usually reserve that for when I move the target out to fifty yards.
 That’s pretty much the way I do it. My goal is to get a good group on the target a 100 yards. If you are thinking of shorter range shooting adjust accordingly. Good Luck.

  Hungry Horse

[recurve]

It took me a long time and some steal wool to get my green mt .50 to shoot but here is what 2yrs got me. .490 cast balls .020 denim (10 oz for Joeann fabrics ) mutton tallow lube(yours should work) and swiss 3f  swiss4f primer, and a rock steady rest. good constant pressure on ram rod. and a peep sight doesn't hurt.  I got bad groups then with the advise of Dixon's I polished the barrel with fine steal wool(oiled) and things got better. when I got swiss I saw improvement but the 2 biggest was thicker patch( tried .015-.018 liked .020) and the lube. 36inch barrel

to this

your load work up might be better

[hmccaskey]

Thanks for the advice.

I do have another question.  When developing a load do you weigh the power or go by volume measure? 

I realize that volume measure of grains and weight measure of grains may not be the same for a specific volume and it depends on powder granule size.
My adjustable volume measures are incremented by 10 grains.  I do have a scale I use with my cartridge reloading that I could use.


As far as components, I dropped the .010 patches, added a few more flints to the order and sent the order in.

Think I will start with the .495 ball, .018 patch and 50 grains of 3F.  From my research it looks like 3F will work in the pan also. 

It may be a while before I have results.  Have yet to apply stain and finish to the stock. I keep tinkering with it.  Take a little more off here, find another scratch there.  At some point I just have quit with shaping/sanding and put a finish on it.

Thanks

Hal

[Not English]

Hal,

3f will definitely work. I use 3f & 4f interchangeably. If I'm shooting at a rendezvous, I use either, I can't tell the difference. I do prime with 4f when hunting for a different reason. I put powder loads in a film can and patched balls in a loading block. My 4f priming horn is a small flat horn that fits in a coat pocket. Here in Wi. blaze orange is required and it can get really cold during deer season. I don't used a hunting pouch because the clothes and bag are pretty bulky. Everything I need for 1-3 shots can be put in a coat pocket.

[Daryl]

Thanks for the advice.

I do have another question.  When developing a load do you weigh the power or go by volume measure? 

I realize that volume measure of grains and weight measure of grains may not be the same for a specific volume and it depends on powder granule size.
My adjustable volume measures are incremented by 10 grains.  I do have a scale I use with my cartridge reloading that I could use.


As far as components, I dropped the .010 patches, added a few more flints to the order and sent the order in.

Think I will start with the .495 ball, .018 patch and 50 grains of 3F.  From my research it looks like 3F will work in the pan also. 

It may be a while before I have results.  Have yet to apply stain and finish to the stock. I keep tinkering with it.  Take a little more off here, find another scratch there.  At some point I just have quit with shaping/sanding and put a finish on it.

Thanks

Hal

Hi Hal.
Use your adjustable measure until you find a load that works to your satisfaction. THEN weigh what that setting 'throws', then make a static measure that throws THAT weight & record it somewhere, so that if you lose the measure at some time in the future, you can refer to your notes and make another measure.

[hmccaskey]

Success! and failure.

I shot the rifle for the first time today.  My first shots with a flint lock.  This is so cool.  I am hooked.  I am not really having an issue with pan flash. 
I have not shot a lot with open sights and my early 60 year old eyes don't help.
Shooting from a bench with the forearm supported by a sand bag.

Started with 60 grains of 3F, .495 ball, .018 pillow ticking and TOW mink oil.  3F in the pan.  The 3f is so old it is in a Dupont can.  Shooting at 50 yds.  The 25 yd berm at the club appears to have been removed.  Placed two targets one on top of other.

This is fairly tight load. Had to use a short started and put good bit of pressure on the ram rod.  Would not want a much tighter load for hunting.

First shot very fast ignition.  About 10 inches low of aim point.  hit the lower target.
thinking this was such a tight load I better swab with wet patch followed by dry one.
Second shot same load about 1.5 inches to left.
Swabbed with wet patch followed by dry one.

Really hoping to find 70 grain load that worked so after two shots
moved up to 70 grains of 3f, 3f prime, 3 shot group
swab between shots
Ignition got slower with last shot - about a 3 inch group

Tried 3 shot group with 2f Goex main charge and 2f prime (2f prime seemed slower to me)

First shot flashed in pan several times. I was sure I had added powder but it would not fire.  Tried to pull the ball with no success.  All I had was the ramrod (range rod did not fit my ball puller)  Had given up and started packing to leave when I found a safety pin in the supplies. I worked on the flash hole - broke through some crude and could feel the powder.
primed the pan and it shot fine.
swap again between shots
2.5 inch group slightly lower that the 70 grain 3F group.

Decided to file down the front site to raise the group closer to the center of the top target
Next shot flashed in pan.  cleaned touch hole with the pin again and it fired with a noticeable delay between pan and main charge. Startled me and I hit way low.

Thought maybe the swabbing was pushing crude into the touch hole. Next shot loaded without the swab.  It fired fine.  Hit higher than the previous 3 shot string as expected.

The recovered patches looked good.

So the good news.  It shoots about as well I can and it's fun. I'm sure it will shoot minute of deer.

I will try again when I get the right adapter for my range rod.

I did a search on swabbing between shots. I have a fairly tight load. I'm going to try without the swabbing next.

Any thoughts?

Thanks
Hal

[Daryl]

Good results and Hal, good idea about not swabbing. That is likely why the ignition problem as it is very easy to push fouling down into the cone on the inside of the vent.
Your combination sounds very good & MOST likely does not need wiping. To not need wiping is why we use tight loads.
Patches saturated with mink oil is best.

[Banjoman]

Hal, I would also add this tip. After loading and before priming, I always put a pick in the touch hole to ensure it is clear.  Then with a rag or my shirt tail I wipe the frizzen and pan.  Never had a misfire doing this.  I learned that from an experienced shooter on this forum.

[Bob Roller]

My experience with shooting flintlocks is limited but when I was testing the 58 caliber
rifle back in 2008 I inserted the vent pick before I loaded it and removed it before priming.
The is nothing complex about a flintlock rifle and the first shot can be loaded with a tight
ball and patch combination like a target rifle and then the second one can be loaded with
a ball one caliber undersize. Original guns with the mould that was used with them show
tight fitting loads were not used.In a 50 caliber gun I think a .485 ball will shoot "minute of
critter" but will not win a match.It will aid in a faster reload if the need arises.
Bob Roller

[Bob Roller]

My experience with shooting flintlocks is limited but when I was testing the 58 caliber
rifle back in 2008 I inserted the vent pick before I loaded it and removed it before priming.
The is nothing complex about a flintlock rifle and the first shot can be loaded with a tight
ball and patch combination like a target rifle and then the second one can be loaded with
a ball one caliber undersize. Original guns with the mould that was used with them show
tight fitting loads were not used.In a 50 caliber gun I think a .485 ball will shoot "minute of
critter" but will not win a match.It will aid in a faster reload if the need arises.
Bob Roller

PS:
I failed to answer the the original question about what components are needed
and I think it begins with a gun of some kind

[Jeff Murray]

You might want to add knapping tools so you can keep a sharp edge on your flint.  it also helps to wipe the face of the frizzen and bottom surface of the flint between shots to remove the pan flash residue and improve spark volume.  If you do this make sure you wipe from the jaws of the lock out toward the striking edge of the flint (toward the frizzen).  Don't wipe across the flint striking edge or it will lay your finger open.  I hunt with a 50 caliber flintlock and use 2ff in the load and 4ffff to prime.  When you are hunting also check your priming regularly.  Fine powder will clump in the pan and slow ignition.  Change it if it starts to clump.  A pan brush is a good tool to have.  A tooth brush works in a pinch and has the added benefit of enhancing your smile.  You might also check to make sure your priming does not cover the touch hole.  I try to slant the surface of the priming from the outside of the pan to just below the touch hole.  The flash goes across the priming and into the touch hole for very fast ignition.  Good luck.

[Daryl]

I fill the pan with prime, that way I know it will go off & quickly.  Timed tests have proven that a covered vent goes off more
 quickly than one that is not covered. As well, priming banked away from the vent was the slowest in timed ignition tests.
I also never wipe the frizzen, nor the bottom of it either. I've just never found that to be necessary.
Taylor doesn't either. This doesn't mean our way is best, just that we've never felt the need to wipe the frizzen or flint off after a shot.
Then again, we only shoot 30 to 50 or so rounds on the trail in a normal day's shooting, so maybe with so few shots, it isn't necessary.
There was the odd time a few years back, we'd fire of from 50 to 100 in a day's shooting.  The fellow who prompted that type of shooting
moved South, so we've cut back on our shooting considerably. We still didn't wipe the frizzens nor the flint or pan, but did nap the flints
or changed them when necessary.  Starting with a new flint, would usually last the day, napping once or twice.