Not grouping

[B.Barker]

The first .40 rifle I built I had a time getting it to group. Tried bear grease and several commercial lubes and different patch thicknesses. I finally used some spit on my patches and the groups shrunk right up. I then started looking for really thin lubes and have used different gun oils and even three-in-one with success. Thin oils aren't good for hunting purposes in my opinion though. I have also found that barrels with wider grooves and smaller lands tend to shoot better with a wider variety of loads than barrels with narrow grooves and wide lands. I also dislike barrels with a twist slower than 1-66".

[Mule Brain]

I would try .490 balls as well in that rifle, you might be surprised. Some barrels like different sizes of balls   

[Not English]

Robby, Here's my 2 cents. I have a right hand .54 that I shoot with 80gr. of 3f. It shoots extremely well with that load and I never change it. My patches are pillow ticking (.018?) for spit patching and something slightly thinner for a greased (tallow + beargrease) patch when hunting. What I'm wondering is if you aren't hooking your finger around the trigger. If i remember, you said your first shot was on the right. Your heighth is OK. I had the same problem except that I am right handed. A good friend who is a police fire arms instructor wondered if I wasn't hooking my finger and making my shots walk sideways. As soon as I started to be aware of finger placement, my shooting improved considerably. What I'm getting at in this long winded response is that your problem looks like it could be exactly the opposite of mine. You are left handed  which would pull them to the left.

Dave

[Daryl]

The too much trigger finger is usually with handguns & can result in either direction, depending on which way the finger is manipulated, either pulling or pushing.
I've net heard of it happening with rifles, especially with long barreled rifles.  Good thinking, though. Much of the dispersion might come down to bench-techniques
with THAT rifle, but Robby is not new to this game, I'd wager.

[little joe]

Robby Do not be offended but are you sure you have the skill level to do better? I,m 79 and sure do not have the skill level. I usta. Usta is the most used word that us old #$@*,s use. I usta catch fish and usta be a good shot ect.

[Robby]

Hahahahaha, Not offended at all Joe, usta is a regular part of my vocabulary! I have taken that into consideration and have devices to assist me in this endeavor, and even with them, I allow myself a certain amount of leeway. That is why I try different, proven, muzzleloaders at hand, sort off a barometer measuring my current abilities. I'm not so full of myself as to use delusion as a modifying agent. I am just not as bad as this gun shoots, yet.
Robby

[wolf]

Robby if the rifle is stringing sideways like your is all the different patches, grease, different powder and different size ball in the world will never do a thing to kelp you. even if it isn't a one hole shooter it should at least shoot a triangle 3 shot group at most times. then you will know all is well with the rifle and shooter. then it is a matter of trying different patches, grease, powder and different size ball to get the best load. like I said in my previous posts from what I see I think it is bedding,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Daryl]

This is from the 9th or 10th posting on the first page:
Robby -  "The sights are pretty standard configuration for what I do. Yes, on this target the elevation does look somewhat consistent, that is not always the case. When I first started my sight in over a year ago, my first round would always be near the bull, second round way to the right and it would shotgun after that. Shocked the heck out of me today when the first shot was way to the right from the get go."

Something weird going on for sure. I really don't think it's bedding.  150 shots total is not much, but I've never had to shoot a bunch to get a ML to shoot well.
Witness the Hawken re-make Taylor posted a year or more ago. It was shooting groups right off the bat. I'm pretty sure Old Sam didn't shoot much, but hard to say.
With new rifles Taylor has made, with several different makes of barrels, they all shoot well, right off the bat & we can tell the new owner what load to use just from
some minor testing.  We don't start at ball size for the first load - don't see the reason for that (except for the .25 to .36's).
Flinching usually causes misses, to the right, but more 4 o'clock, so that isn't it.  If there is no standard stringing, but shooting all over, it isn't the bedding.

Have you tried dry-firing the rifle off the bags (with or without prime) the standard way you shoot, to see if there is movement of the gun due to the lock itself?
If so, a different hold, harder or softer might be the answer.  Perhaps that is something you did on the last target you posted? They are definitely not stringing.
A puzzler for sure, but not insurmountable. There MUST be a reason/cause.

[Herb]

i would switch to a slower powder.  You tried Goex 2F with much better results.  Try Swiss 1 1/2F, or Swiss 2F, or Olde Eynsford 1 1/2F if you can get a little of those powders for a trial.

[Daryl]

GOEX 1F or Cannon is slower yet.  I suspect the 2F is about as slow as you'd want to go in a small bore like a .50.  It might work, though.
 Taylor did OK with 1F in his .40 Kuntz rifle at Hefley Creek rendezvous. He'd grabbed the wrong horn & had to increase his load somewhat. Once he did that, he didn't miss any gongs. Thankfully, it took a while for him to catch on to the low shooting.

[Herb]

Neill Fields, who worked at the GRRW, had a rifle that wouldn't group, don't remember what caliber.  He finally tried Goex 1F and it shot great.   He built more than 400 muzzleloaders.

[Herb]

Here is Swiss 2F compared to other powders in a .40 I built for Carole.  The top rifle is a .40 Carl bought, shot on the top right target.  I don't know who built it.  The other targets I shot with Carole's rifle.

She was on this forum for a while, known as Eagle Lady.  We buried her and Carl Friday.

If you left click the picture, it will enlarge.  If a little + sign appears, click on that for a sharper image.

[Daryl]

So sad to hear of their passing, Herb. My condolences.

[Robby]

Herb, I would try the Swiss 1-1/2 G but no one around these parts sells it and ordering just one can is cost prohibitive when I have a considerable amount of Goex in 2 and 3 F on hand, too bad cause I'd like to give it a go.
I am very appreciative of all the suggestions You guys have made and have tried to get to many of them, its a slow process when trying to alter one factor at a time.
Today I stuck with the 65Gr. (by measure), which showed promise, and tried a different patching. This target seems to me is showing the pattern is corralling in somewhat. The thin barely visible line is an 8" diameter circle. Kind of surprised the grouping is off to the right, but it is a grouping, not as tight as it should be, but I am very encouraged!!!!!

Again, thank you all.
Robby

[Marcruger]

Brother Robby, PM me your address and I will share some The Minute-Men patching canvas with you.  Worth a try.  I know what I have is good stuff, so it may help shorten your journey.   God Bless,   Marc

[Darkhorse]

I would consider a non-stress bedding of that barrel. Especially if there is any warpage in the fore stock.

[Robby]

I don't know what a 'non-stress bedding' is Darkhourse but if you can explain it I will try it. The stock for this rifle was made from the last full length piece of a tree I had cut up at the local sawmill. Because it was only 2-1/8" thick, badly warped, cupped, and twisted, I decided to make a gun for myself with it. It was a real challenge laying out and dealing with its built in contortions and getting a useable stock, almost like chiseling out a sculpture as opposed to the pretty straight forward approach usually used. As it is, the barrel comes out freely with no pinching or binding, and the barrel channel holds pretty straight sans barrel.
I like the gun and it fits me well, begrudgingly she was made, and still putting me through $#*!! HAH!!!
Robby

[Marcruger]

Some guns seem to group just fine with just about anything.  Some guns make you work for it, and every little thing has to be juuuuuust right or it won't group.   

[Darkhorse]

Robby, I'll try to help you with a non stress bedding job in a few days. Right now I'm trying to remember the details. The last longrifle I  bedded like this was my .40 longrifle and that was 15 or so years ago.

DH
                     

[BillF/TRF]

Any "sponginess" or movement when you squeeze the stock to the barrel between the fastening pins?

[little joe]

Whats the demensions of this bbl?

[Daryl]

I think the sights could be part of the problem, depending on width of the notch and front sight.
I usually need lots of light with V sights, however Taylor can shoot better than I with a really wide rear U notch.
Someone a long time ago, posted a picture to me in a PM of a U notch rear with a bead that fit into the bottom of
the notch which was then used as an aperture sight - for chunk shooting.
It's a thought.
It was something like this only with taller sides and not pinched closer at the top to make the rules. As well
the bead was larger in ratio to the notch.

[RVAH-7]

No offense intended, but has anyone else shot it for groups?  Are you shooting other flinters on the same day and getting better groups?    I try to compare to a known quantity on the same day, as I know that I can sure have a bad day at the range.   

If it is indeed the barrel, perhaps re-barrel the rifle?  Modern barrel makers can replicate the outside dimensions well enough to replace an existing barrel.   

Another option could be having Mr Hoyt look at the barrel and see if he can find an anomaly.  If he does, he may be able to bore and re-rifle it. 

Your load looks like it should work in a good barrel, as in it is not too loose.  A suggestion would be read your patches and see what they are telling you.  Perhaps in that light-appearing rifle, try backing off to 70 grains of 2f and see what happens?  I have seen in laddering up loads in testing, you hit a sweet spot for groups, then stiffer loads seem to open things up progressively.  85 grains of 3f in my experience equates to maybe 95 grains of 2f.  That just may be a might stout for accuracy.  Just a thought.  It almost seems like with heavy loads in skinny barrels you can get some sort of whipping vibration that throws shots. 

That is a gorgeous rifle, and you did a fantastic job, so I can feel your pain and not wanting to let it go. 

God Bless,   Marc

Sir; I'm not a builder, just a flintlock hunter so I can imagine your frustration. Your rifle is stunningly beautiful. If a buddy happens by for coffee, could they try shooting a group and/or also could you try shooting right handed?  Just a thought and I'm dying to hear the final cure.

[Robby]

Daryl, The sights are challenging and changing them out is on the list, but I have to try some other things first. Still hoping to find that magic combo!
Robby

[Robby]

Joe, barrel is 48" x 1" B x .75" narrowest point x .82 M
Robby