What are the practical limits to slim rifle

[Jerry V Lape]

I keep contemplating building a very slender lightweight longrifle with something like a .32-.40caliber bore, smallest flintlock I can find and reducing all the dimensions to produce a rifle with about 36 inch light weight swamped barrel.  Not a child's rifle, full length butt stock so a man can shoot it comfortably.  It should be appropriate to one of the original PA schools.  What are the practical limits?  I can see problems in retaining strength through the lock area and wrist for example.  What school would best accommodate this project?  Surely some of you have already done this and can lend advice. 

[J. Talbert]

Jerry,

One thing that bugs me with any small barrel is trying to position the front lock bolt.  If it's positioned right between the barrel and ramrod hole it is usually on the high side to catch the front of the lock when the pan is positioned in the middle of the side flat. 
I guess the bottom line is to be sure the lock you choose is not too big for the barrel dimension.

Has anybody else out there encountered this issue?

Jeff

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I once saw a lovely Lehigh rifle that was ultimately skinny.  the butt plate was no more than 3 1/2" heel to toe and narrow.  There was very little wood above or below the lock.  The toouch hole was way up high on the side flat.  Ram rod was about 1/4" at the inboard end.  But the barrel was long, heavy and had a minimal swamp.  Also, the bore was small.  It was all barrel.

[sz]

I have made some that very VERY slender.
In such rifles I have not followed any school but I believe the Leigh would lend itself to such a build if you wanted to stay within the confines of historical accuracy.  
The ones I have made were what Bivins would have called "new School"
but to put some numbers with what i am saying, I made one a while back that was a 36 caliber with an octagon to round rifled 42" barrel with a .700" breach.  I used a Chambers late Ketland lock. The finished weight of the rifle was 5 pounds 5 ounces.
When I finished it I could see that had I wanted to, I could have done one even lighter, by going to a 38" barrel, going to a 28 caliber and slimming down the barrel a lot more.  So I would have to guess the "limit" as to how light I could build one if the caliber was small would robably be about 4.8 to 5 pounds.  But unless i were to do one that small, I can't say for sure.  I can only guess.
Here's a pic of one I made a while back.  this one has a 45 cal 36" barrel and weighed only 5 pounds, but the barrel could have been slimmed down more, and the butt could have been narrowed down too if I had wanted, so it could have been made even lighter than it is

[J.D.]

I once handled a very delicate, Hawken squirrel rifle that was extremely light, extremely slim, extremely delicate, and well balanced. Even the slightly swamped barrel was light in weight. The lock was a small, delicate looking piece of work proportional to the size of the gun. I almost bought it, but would have had to put the kids up for collateral. The wife was not amenable to that, so I had to pass.

So, yes, building an extremely slim, delicate gun can be done, though I suspect that getting the proportions and balance correct would be challenging. A real slim barrel would be a must. A  40 in an 38", A wt barrel might do the trick, but a smaller bore might require a custom barrel, proportional to the bore diameter, for balance.

God bless

[Acer Saccharum]

To avoid the frontlock screw dilemma, you can use one screw, as in late rifles, or a hook under the toe of the lock.

Get one of those ramrod scrapers to work your rr down to fit, eh.

Hahahaha.

Acer

[rich pierce]

If you lean toward Golden Age Pennsylvania rifles a Peter Berry is a nice starting point for a slim rifle. Real nice lines and a sweet tall buttstock for the slimness.  Or maybe something inspired by Kuntz would really work for you.

[T*O*F]

To avoid the frontlock screw dilemma, you can use one screw, as in late rifles, or a hook under the toe of the lock.

Or, you can just leave the center of the screw out.  Tap threads into the wood on the offside and install the screw to hold the front of your sideplate.  Drill and tap a hole in your lockplate where the screw would come out and just insert a stub.  No one will ever know unless they try to remove the lock.

[Ky-Flinter]

On Charlie Burton's table at the CLA show there was a really sweet little "squirrel" rifle...  .25 cal, if I remember right.  Sized for a full grown person to shoot, but oh, so slim.  I don't know that it followed any particular school.  It had a copper squirrel on each side of the 4 piece patch box.  Alas, I didn't take any pictures...  I was too busy handling it!

-Ron

[J Shingler]

Anyone else see that little barrel on Rices table! It was 42" if I remember correctly.  I had to ask how far it was swamped. The skinny part of the barrel was .560 and it was a 36 cal. Talk about a thin rifle that barrel would do it!
J Shingler

[C Wallingford]

On Charlie Burton's table at the CLA show there was a really sweet little "squirrel" rifle...  .25 cal, if I remember right.  Sized for a full grown person to shoot, but oh, so slim.  I don't know that it followed any particular school.  It had a copper squirrel on each side of the 4 piece patch box.  Alas, I didn't take any pictures...  I was too busy handling it!

-Ron

Ron--
That rifle was made by Keith Vance. I think he is an ALR member. It sure is a nice slim one.

[T.C.Albert]

A real slender gun based on a McKee stlye southern half stock may work well...then its all barrel and under rib up front and a nice southern mountain gun in back...takes a single lock bolt, and drawings that could be modified to make it slimmer are available from the log cabin shop...
TCA

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

you can do a .40 Peter berry with a A wt. barrel and keep the ramrod and ram rod hole 5/16" at the tapered end. 42" swamped barrel, but you should be able to keep it under 6 lbs and really slender. He even made some very plain with a brass patch box with very small, light side panels.

wrist on my .50 is 1 1/8" high and 1 3/16 wide. pretty small.

[David G]

On Charlie Burton's table at the CLA show there was a really sweet little "squirrel" rifle...  .25 cal, if I remember right.  Sized for a full grown person to shoot, but oh, so slim.  I don't know that it followed any particular school.  It had a copper squirrel on each side of the 4 piece patch box.  Alas, I didn't take any pictures...  I was too busy handling it!

-Ron

Ron--
That rifle was made by Keith Vance. I think he is an ALR member. It sure is a nice slim one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I saw that little rifle and it was a dandy! I wish now I would have taken some pictures. Maybe Keith will come along and post some picture of it.

[northmn]

I am currently working on a 25 3/4 inch barrel.  I sued the L&R Bailes lock to get proportion.  As I shoot lefty that was my option.  The Allen small locks "Becky's locks" would be good.  With the small ramrods I used a little thicker web as I needed space for the lock/ trigger mechanism.  Mine is a poor boy Southern rifle and I used a DST laying around.  You also need to find furniture that proportions.  Laste Lancester also works and you might even want to file down trigger guard proportions.  I built a nice Lancester 40 in 13/16 once and the rifle slid off of a poorly designed bench at a match and the wrist broke. I feel that was due a lot to the DST it had.  I really had doubts about using the DST in my current poor boy and recommend a single trigger for a slim rifle as they do not weaken the wrist area so much.  The poor boy permits a long breech plug tang that I hope helps strengthen the wrist.  I also paid a lot of attention to grain running through the area.

DP