Author Topic: J&S Hawken Patch Box (Read 3736 times)

louieparker · « **on:** September 05, 2020, 11:25:39 PM »

I just completed this patch box.. Not sure the project will go farther. Depend on my energy level and how bored I get. But I now have the box.
I copied it from the Gamble family J&S rifle.. A very fine rifle..As I understand it's been in the family since day one.
Bought in St. Louis when one of the Gambles went west. LP

redheart · « **Reply #1 on:** September 05, 2020, 11:45:40 PM »

Top class Louie!

rich pierce · « **Reply #2 on:** September 06, 2020, 12:08:58 AM »

Nice job with the riveted hinge. Is this a walnut stocked halfstock? What does the breech look like?

vanu · « **Reply #3 on:** September 06, 2020, 02:05:46 AM »

beautiful box, is that the rifle that is dated 1837?

Bruce

Mtn Meek · « **Reply #4 on:** September 06, 2020, 04:05:57 AM »

I'm hoping that Louie has some better pictures of the original rifle that he can post.

This is one that was published by True West magazine back in 2014 when the rifle was on exhibit at the Autry National Center in Los Angeles.

The description in the True West magazine of the Gamble Hawken is:

Quote

This Gamble family heirloom is on display at the “Western Frontiers” exhibit. Signed on the top of the barrel, “J. & S. Hawken St. Louis,” and bearing an engraved hammer and lockplate stamped “WOLFE & BISHOP WARRANTED,” this .58 caliber Hawken caplock plains rifle is unusual due to its engraved iron patchbox with a buffalo motif.

As far as I know, this Hawken rifle does not have a date on it. The one with the 1836 date is the Atchison Hawken that is all silver mounted.

The Gamble family J&S Hawken is very similar to two other surviving J&S rifles.

I think that Louie made a copy of this rifle some time back. It was also pictured in Jim Gordon's book. It was in a Texas collection at the time the book was published.

The other one is the Robert May J&S Hawken that was pictured in Baird's book and sold at auction several years ago.

I don't have a good photo of the breech on the Gamble Hawken or the Texas collection Hawken, but they appear to be similar to the one on the Robert May Hawken, though maybe not as fancy.

Patch box on the Bob May Hawken.

The Gamble and the Texas Hawken appear to have maple stocks. The Robert May Hawken has a walnut stock, but May had restocked the rifle when he owned it. The barrel on the Bob May Hawken was shortened during its working life.

Both the Gamble Hawken and the Robert May Hawken have “WOLFE & BISHOP WARRANTED” stamped on their locks.

All three of these J&S Hawken rifles share very similar characteristics.

They have similar rectangular side opening patch boxes
The patch box lids have buffalo engraved on them
They have similar breeches
Same type of nose cap
Classic J&S big bow trigger guards
The engraving pattern and style on the Texas Hawken and the Bob May Hawken are the same. Don't know about the Gamble Hawken.

All this suggests to me that they may have been made within a few years of each other.

blienemann · « **Reply #5 on:** September 06, 2020, 05:45:31 AM »

LP, why not mount this to an old piece of maple or walnut - with the appropriate buttplate and toeplate, engrave and age it all up a bit, make a stand and display as a remnant of an historic rifle?

Then if energy overwhelms at some point, it can be "restored" to a full rifle.

An interesting conversation piece in the meantime. I hear that Art Riser might likes to buy this sort of thing.

Cheers, Bob

Marcruger · « **Reply #6 on:** September 06, 2020, 06:11:22 PM »

Clean and beautiful work. God Bless, Marc

louieparker · « **Reply #7 on:** September 06, 2020, 06:30:18 PM »

Mtn. meek your photos are sharper than mine.. I have no photos of the cheek piece side. If you know of any I would like to see them. I was told of this rifle a few years back when a friend learned of it..He was invited to come and see it...No it couldn't be bought. He told me later that the owner had donated his collection and the rifle to the Autry museum.. If he told me about it being dated I have forgotten.
The other two rifles that Mtn Meek posted I have seen..The Red Jackson rifle was displayed at the American Society of Arms collectors meeting in St. Louis a few years ago..The May rifle is owned by a friend.

Rich the breech on these three rifles are very similar and very different to the late Hawkens.
Bob I feel sure there is quite a story behind the Art purchase comment.
As for me building another Hawken.. I really don't need another. But I am very tired of restoration work. So I thought just maybe a miniature of this great rifle would be a fun project. As I said earlier it may never be
completed. I have a big birthday coming up in a couple of months. I am feeling the effects of the many past

Back in the seventies Art Russel at the Hawken Shop In St. Louis wanted me to make for him a Miniature Hawken.. I refused.. But now maybe for myself.

A photo for comparison...... LP

PS> Rich those are not rivets but screws..

Mtn Meek · « **Reply #8 on:** September 07, 2020, 12:46:25 AM »

Louie, that's the only photo I've seen of the Gamble Hawken. I had never seen anything published on it nor knew of it until the little piece in True West magazine.

Evidently the Gamble family donated the Hawken and a bunch of money to the Autry Museum. They have a whole gallery in their name in the museum now and a dedicated curator.

You had us on the original picture you posted. Without a reference point we thought it was a full scale patch box.

louieparker · « **Reply #9 on:** September 07, 2020, 01:52:46 AM »

Mtn. Meek I have some photos coming of that rifle when I get them I will post....LP

J. Talbert · « **Reply #10 on:** September 07, 2020, 04:13:23 PM »

Louie,
Awesome job on the miniature PB. Hope you decide to finish the whole project. I can’t wait to see it.
Jeff

louieparker · « **Reply #11 on:** September 07, 2020, 04:44:23 PM »

Jeff making the box did give a bit of drive.. But not sure its enough to complete the project. I don't seem to have the "drive" I once did. LP

louieparker · « **Reply #12 on:** September 07, 2020, 05:09:15 PM »

MtnMeek....I got the photos. Not really better than what we had but more views..These were sent by email.. I didn't know enough about computer operation to separate them..If you can please do ..These are photos Mr. Gamble sent to a friend...
I was a bit surprised by the trigger guard.. I would have suspected a wider guard and engraving.. If its engraved it I could see no sigh..I guess it could be a period replacement..Really don't know..But a gun with an engraved tang and box, I expected more.
The cheek piece side is very close in styling to the Jackson (Texas) gun.. Louie

bama · « **Reply #13 on:** September 10, 2020, 06:09:38 PM »

Awesome project Louie and I among many others are in hopes that you find the drive to finish your project. Bob Melancon asked me if I had seen your post about the patch box a week or so ago. I told him I had not, I have been so busy in the shop that I had not taken time out to visit the ALR board. I am glad I took the time this morning, your box is great and I am sure the rifle would be also. Not bad for an old gunsmith,

I wish you many more Birthdays and projects.

Jim

Cades Cove Fiddler · « **Reply #14 on:** September 10, 2020, 06:20:20 PM »

... Gotta agree with Jim, Louie,... wish you many many more productive years,... I still remember when I first met you at the old Knoxville show back about 1981 when you graciously handed me the silver A.F. GROSS rifle and let me examine her,... didn't know this 20 something year old hillbilly and still let me handle the fanciest Tennessee rifle by one of the best original builders ever,... !!! ... I'm still amazed and still looking forward to seeing you re-create that one,... !!! .... see you in October,...

.... regards,... CCF...

RAT · « **Reply #15 on:** September 12, 2020, 03:59:52 AM »

It seems the Hawken's liked to use patchbox releases in the toe plate. I've only had the opportunity to examine one original in person, but for obvious reasons I couldn't remove the patchbox. It seems the push rod pushed against a simple short spring with the catch filed into the top portion. An angled wood screw held the bottom of the flat spring in place. The push rod went through the patchbox cavity, so it was easy to see.

I have trouble getting short springs to work. The short length makes them too stiff to flex. I'm looking for a better way.

Does anyone have photos of original Hawken patchbox releases? Or a sketch of one? Or an accurate reproduction?

The only other one I'm familiar with is in Baird's book. It's of a Hawken with a Tryon patchbox. It's a conventional box lid that extends to the butt plate edge.

B.Barker · « **Reply #16 on:** September 12, 2020, 04:14:06 AM »

A really neat old Hawken. I can't say that I have seen any of these rifles before. The patch box you made Louie is very nice maybe the nicest one I've seen on a Hawken. When looking at the photo it looked like the release was in the toe of the rifle. Is that what I'm seeing?

RAT · « **Reply #17 on:** September 12, 2020, 04:25:09 AM »

The Bob May rifle posted by Phil appears the have some rivets or screws at the top of the box surround. I'm guessing these were used to fasten the release mechanism. Sure would like to get some photos of the mechanism.

louieparker · « **Reply #18 on:** September 12, 2020, 04:06:51 PM »

B Barker & Rat I am posting photos of the inside of the May patch box. Not sure this will help you much as I can't be sure it was always like this..It appears to have a flat push rod under the wood.The rivets you saw on the upper part hold the release catch.. The release button is in the toe plate.
You are right a short spring just don't work right.On my second post i will show you what will do the job...LP

upload image

louieparker · « **Reply #19 on:** September 12, 2020, 05:04:57 PM »

Rat & B Barker .. I don't like anything inside the box. The old Hawken Shop in St. Louis sold a box that had the spring mounted in the bottom of the box and the cam that operated it was on the center hinge segment..It worked fine.. But it was screwed to to the bottom of the box.. There is a more complicated way to do this and gives you about five inches of spring and does a great job. You do this with a C shaped spring.. I will post thee boxes.. The two rectangular boxes I made.. The other is the old Hawken Shop box..I added the trim around the lid as the one I was copying had it,, These photos will show you where the spring goes and what it looks like on the inside.. They all have a lift handle to open the box.The lid stays open until you push it down and it snaps closed..Notice on all the photos near the center of the box lid in the box body you will see a screw showing at both ends just left and right of the box lid...Those two screws hold the spring...It circles around to back of the box and has
a tongue that protruded to the inside of the box cavity..The cam on the center segment rest on the spring. The one box has a roller... Although Hawken sometimes used them, this is not his design. If this is not clear let me know ...Louie
PS< The box that has the buffalo with the horn seeming to come out of its shoulders I copied from the Texas gun posted here....LP

RAT · « **Reply #20 on:** September 13, 2020, 05:46:49 AM »

Regarding the May rifle...

The first image looks like the catch stud attached to the underside of the lid. The makes sense.

I'm not getting the 2nd image showing the catch mounted to the underside of the surround. There seems to be 3 screws or rivets holding this in place. They don't appear to be equidistant. So I'm not quite getting what all those are really for. I'm guessing this part of the release extends into the wood far enough for the push rod to make contact. Is this simply a flat spring... attached to the underside of the surround... with a thicker catch filed into it to engage the catch on the lid?

I'm also not seeing how the kick-open spring is done. It looks like there are 2 rivets or screws holding it to the underside of the bottom portion of the surround. These are spaced pretty far apart. The spring isn't visible in the photos.

A sketch of what we can't see would be helpful.

Louie... I'm also going to send you a message about the capbox I was able to examine.

louieparker · « **Reply #21 on:** September 13, 2020, 07:03:41 PM »

RAT.. I have handled this rifle several times but really didn't study the release. I got the photos from the owner this week and apparently did the same thing.. On close examination the round rod can be seen. Its possible that the flat piece that we see below the wood is a V spring.. When the lid is closed and before it latches the upper catch compresses the spring then it latches. When the button is pushed it unlatches the catch and the V spring opens the lid a bit. By the looks of the edge of the box it was not always a perfect arrangement as its been pried open several times. I will contact the owner later today and with the rifle in his hand ask questions.. Maybe get some correct answers . LP

louieparker · « **Reply #22 on:** September 15, 2020, 02:25:23 AM »

RAT I spoke with the owner today.. He says the piece of flat metal seen below the latch is what the release rod contacts to move the latch. It moves with the latch.The latch does not rotate on the rivet but goes straight in. So the rivets on each side of the latch may be in slotted holes so it can move back..? He thinks the third or rear rivet holds the end of the spring tight... There is no spring to open the box. It just raises the lid a bit automatically.. It may have originally had an opening spring. He offered to send me the rifle but I declined his offer.. Louie

RAT · « **Reply #23 on:** September 17, 2020, 04:38:43 AM »

I don't have it scanned... but after studying the photos... I made a sketch that looks remarkably like what you described. And I did it before reading your most recent post.

Thank you

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Author Topic: J&S Hawken Patch Box (Read 3736 times)