Author Topic: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??  (Read 644 times)

Offline Bigmon

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GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« on: October 06, 2020, 09:39:26 PM »
I just bought a case of 25# mixed Goex Powder, 2F 3F and a few cans of what is called Cartridge powder.  To me it looks about like 3F but maybe the granuals are sort of elongated?
Think this would make any difference in shooting?
I was told it is for loading in black powder cartridges, just like it says on the can.  But though I have a few older cartridge cuns I have never used BP in them.
Regards to all

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2020, 10:17:08 PM »
I shot a case of GOEX Cartridge a few years back, and treated it just like 2 Fg...worked fine!  I think the difference may be graphite polished powder and no fines, to speak of.
D. Taylor Sapergia
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Offline arcticap

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #2 on: October 06, 2020, 10:30:56 PM »
Smokymountainmike was given 2 pounds and posted:

"I took both of my 54 cal rifles to the range this afternoon. I tried both of them with the cartridge powder. Both rifles shot well using this powder and my groups were about the same as I was getting using FFG. I started with 80 grs and went up to 110 grs. I settled on 100 grs in both rifles. One of my rifles is a Lyman GPR and the other is a Pedersoli Rocky Mt Hawken. The Pedersoli really shined with this powder."

Skipper posted that it reportedly had a burn rate between 2F and 3F.
That possibly could have been surmised from cartridge load data published in the Lyman BP Handbook.
« Last Edit: October 06, 2020, 10:39:29 PM by arcticap »

Offline Bigmon

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #3 on: October 07, 2020, 02:41:54 AM »
I went thru that case of 25 cans and found two cans labeled "Cowboy" powder,  what ever that is?  I assume it's for cowboy action shooting?  It's all GOEX black powder.  I'll just try it out and see how it does?
Thanks for the input.

Offline riflee

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #4 on: October 07, 2020, 05:50:36 PM »
  I thought Goex Cartridge powder was discontinued? I liked it in cap&ball pistol and cartridge pistols(1851 Colt).   Cartridge Goex does have graphite I think to settle well from a drop tube.

If the Cartridge Goex is still selling I will be getting some. To tell the truth though the Alliant Black MZ I tested was just as consistent shooting. The only black powder sub I ever liked. The company making it closed shop and took the proprietary formula with it.































         

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2020, 06:20:47 AM »
I just bought a case of 25# mixed Goex Powder, 2F 3F and a few cans of what is called Cartridge powder.  To me it looks about like 3F but maybe the granuals are sort of elongated?
Think this would make any difference in shooting?
I was told it is for loading in black powder cartridges, just like it says on the can.  But though I have a few older cartridge guns I have never used BP in them.
Regards to all

The Goex "Cartridge" powder was made at the old Moosic, PA plant back in the 1990s. It was to compete with the Swiss powder in back powder cartridge shooting.  It was nothing more than the standard 2Fg powder with the fines screened out.  They quit making it before moving to Minden. Then when GOEX moved down to Minden, Louisiana they started to produce another premium owder that was made differently than standard powder.  For this powder they milled the charcoal and sulfur longer in the ball mill and extended wheel milling time by about 15 minutes.  Burned a bit faster and cleaner than the regular production.  When they got that into production they sent me some to shoot and take apart to see if the difference in processing had done what they wanted it to do.  Then more recently they came out with the English name powder but I never got a chance to look closely at it.

The Cowboy powder was just 3F with some of the coarse stuff screened out.  Used in reduced loads in black powder cartridge and cap and ball pistols used in Cowboy action shooting.  That also went out of production.

Bill K.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2020, 06:35:38 AM »
  I thought Goex Cartridge powder was discontinued? I liked it in cap&ball pistol and cartridge pistols(1851 Colt).   Cartridge Goex does have graphite I think to settle well from a drop tube.

If the Cartridge Goex is still selling I will be getting some. To tell the truth though the Alliant Black MZ I tested was just as consistent shooting. The only black powder sub I ever liked. The company making it closed shop and took the proprietary formula with it.

If my memory serves me correctly the Alliant Black MZ was a modified smokeless powder.  Alliant is not for their smokeless powders made in Canada and that is where the Black MZ was made.
When I first got my hands on a container I tried to break it down in water to see what was in it.  That did not work.  As soon as I dumped it into acetone it dissolved. Then I separated it.  Some sort of slow burning smokeless with a bunch of inert powder in with it to keep it from going into a pressure responsive burn rate.  But when you looked at the price of the container you calculated it cost about $34 a pound at that time.  Now it would be up around $50 per pound.

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Online Daniel Coats

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2020, 06:53:42 AM »
I experienced occasional misfires using GOEX Cartridge grade in a percussion rifle. Not a scientific study by any means but it was the only powder that had this problem in that particular rifle. 
Dan

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Offline riflee

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2020, 06:49:08 PM »
  Howdy!
I was happy to find that BlackMZ sub when it said right on the jug of it that it was non-corrosive. I called to Aliant Powder and found it was discontinued. They said the company that made it closed up shop.

I tested it by shooting it several different days and leaving the gun uncleaned to see what would happen. The gun didn't corrode or rust. There was some smoke when it was fired I think.

Anywhooo.....I am glad the good ole Goex is still around. I don't like the idea of how the BATFE treats it with so many stipulations on it. I thunk it could be on the shelf in stores safely.  We are lucky to be able to get it at all.

If there was misfire with a percussion rifle with the "Cartridge Goex" then maybe it didn't tap down the flash channel well being somewhat elongated particles.

I haven't tried any of the other grades of the Goex like the Old Ensford type. Tried Swiss 1.5 and liked it in the rifle Hawken I have with the 1-22 twist rifling.

Is the Old Ensford type a higher grade powder than the regular Goex? 

I've only got one "FLINT LOCK" rifle I made and kept that I've shot. The 3F Goex works well in it. The Pedersoli flinter I have has never been shot. It's the Blue Ridge or "Frontier" model. There was a model of it sold as made in the USA but I fergit the name of it. It was very similar to the Pedersoli.  OH! my memory has slowly responded. It was the Hatfield rifle.

What am I getting at? I don't think Cartridge would work well in a flint lock rifle.

Instead of being on the "puter" pondering black powder I should go out and SHOOT some today. To heck with doing chores around the homestead today.

I like this web site. Even though I thunk I know it all bout black powder and shooting it and all.......I can always learn more from enlightened shooters.  Take care Pards!  It's a jungle out there.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2020, 08:54:22 PM »
  Howdy!
I was happy to find that BlackMZ sub when it said right on the jug of it that it was non-corrosive. I called to Aliant Powder and found it was discontinued. They said the company that made it closed up shop.

I tested it by shooting it several different days and leaving the gun uncleaned to see what would happen. The gun didn't corrode or rust. There was some smoke when it was fired I think.

If there was misfire with a percussion rifle with the "Cartridge Goex" then maybe it didn't tap down the flash channel well being somewhat elongated particles.
 

Is the Old Ensford type a higher grade powder than the regular Goex? 


What am I getting at? I don't think Cartridge would work well in a flint lock rifle.

The Black MZ was a slightly modified smokeless powder.  It left no potassium carbonate in the bore as you get with BP and the subs.  That coating of fine particles of potassium carbonate will pick up moisture from the air depending on the relative humidity.  Below 30% R.H. it is non-hygroscopic.  As the RH goes above 30% it will pick up moisture.  The "damp" particles of the potassium carbonate can set up tiny corrosion cells on the surface of the metal.  Then a point is reached where it forms a continuous film that does not all corrosion cells that would start to eat into the metal.  The smokeless does not produce potassium carbonate as a product of combustion so there is nothing on the surface of the metal that would cause electrolytic corrosion to go on.

The GOEX cartridge powder was simply regular 2Fg with the finer portions of the grain size mix removed.  You you would not get any fines into the vent to promote rapid ignition.  In most flinters the main charge would be spaced too far away from the outside of the vent to get reliable ignition.

From what I understand the Olde Ensford powder would be like the Express powder they made back around 2005 at Minden.  When GOEX got into that Express powder they simply ball milled the charcoal and sulfur mixture in the ball mill for a longer period of time to grind it to a finer particle size.  This would be expected to increase the burn rate of the finished powder a bit above their regular powder.  Then they would run the Express powder an additional 15 minutes in the wheel mill to get an even finer ingredient particle size grind.  Gives a bit faster and cleaner burning in the finished powder.  But it as something of a burden on the machinery scheduling time so it had to carry a higher price.  They sent me some to check if their approach actually worked. I checked the particle size of the charcoal in their regular production and the Express powder.  And the difference could be quantified.  But GOEX listened to the wrong people and priced the powder up there with the Swiss.  So it wasn't long before that product fell by the wayside.  Then they applied the same concept to the Olde Ensford but kept the price down to a little above regular production so they would not force that version out of the market. According to the then president of GOEX they would also sort through their incoming supply of charcoal and isolate batches where the fixed carbon content was at 75%. Differences in the fixed carbon content of the charcoal used has a noticeable effect or muzzle velocities produced by the different lots of powder. Lower fixed carbon burns faster and higher fixed carbon burns slower.

Bill K.

Offline riflee

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2020, 11:35:10 PM »
Mad Monk, you're a wealth of information. Interesting.

 I thunked on the Black MZ after shootin it and mentioned to my lovely wife it seemed a lot like smokeless powder. She just said ,"oh well".  I wasn't too far off the mark with my thunkin.   I wish Alliant would bring it back and...sell it a little cheaper. I could tell that powder seemed to make faster velocity.

Triple 7 FFF is a fast powder and....27gr FFF  of it harmed my pistol.  The triple 7 FF is better for a pistol and I kinda like it. The real black powder is on the top of my list though. Ifin it was good enough for Jeremiah Johnson it's good enough fer me. The book," Crow Killer", from Dixie Gun Works about Jeremiah is a good read.

Offline Mad Monk

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Re: GOEX "Cartridge" black powder??
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2020, 11:53:47 PM »
Mad Monk, you're a wealth of information. Interesting.

 I thunked on the Black MZ after shootin it and mentioned to my lovely wife it seemed a lot like smokeless powder. She just said ,"oh well".  I wasn't too far off the mark with my thunkin.   I wish Alliant would bring it back and...sell it a little cheaper. I could tell that powder seemed to make faster velocity.

Triple 7 FFF is a fast powder and....27gr FFF  of it harmed my pistol.  The triple 7 FF is better for a pistol and I kinda like it. The real black powder is on the top of my list though. Ifin it was good enough for Jeremiah Johnson it's good enough fer me. The book," Crow Killer", from Dixie Gun Works about Jeremiah is a good read.

The problem is when you work with small quantities of smokeless powder  you can't blend a bunch of batches to gain good uniformity from one lot to another.  You simply cannot produce a uniform product when working with small amounts of that stuff.  The military came up with bennite back in the 1970s to replace real black powder in the intermediate primer systems in large caliber artillery. They are still trying to make that stuff in a consistent form.  I was quizzed about that last year.  That mixture of black powder and smokeless powders ends up giving them the worst of both rather than the better of both.

The 777 is indeed a strong powder.  You simply use reduced loads unless you are shooting a very strong rifle or pistol.  You must treat that powder as you would treat the Swiss powder.  It is something of a BP sub ballistic strength equivalent.  Originally developed for the more expensive in-line rifles.  Ignition temperature higher that that of Pyrodex.  And since it contains no perchlorate it is not really corrosive in the gun.  When the plastic sabots were introduced the perchlorate made follow up reloads nearly impossible. The 777 did away with that problem.