Note on lubes.....

[Marcruger]

Nothing definitive here, nor earthshaking, but I tried three lubes back-to-back this weekend.  Not a Pletch-grade test.

1) Hoppe's Black Powder Lube (NOT No.9), a thick slippery liquid.
2) Lehigh Valley Lube, a watery liquid.
3) Rendered Hog Lard given to me by a friend to test.  A natural product to test versus the newcomers.  This lard felt firm just like pure mink oil. Obviously not a "wet lube".

All three shot the same sized group. 
The patching material held fine with each shot (recovered patches), but the lard left a blackened goo on the fired patch. 

I load tight with Daryl's wet lube method, and each lube was different in loading pressure with my range rod:

1) Hoppe's BP Lube - My go-to lube.  Slipperier than the proverbial owl snot.   The load went right down smoothly all the way to the bottom. 
2) Lehigh Valley - "Stickier" than Hoppe's BP.  By that I mean it went down in herks and jerks.  Not too bad overall, but definitely not a smooth situation.
3) Lard - This was a beast.  It really stuck at spots in the bore, and of course the rod was greased by the lard too.  It was a fight to get the ball/patch down onto the powder.  So it looks like white mink oil, but is way less slippery. 

If someone is not loading as tightly, then the lard may work fine.  I don't know. 

My load was 70 grains of 2f, a .490 ball, and a .018 The Minute-Men cotton canvas patch.  I normally use a .495 ball, but dropped down for this experiment.  I am glad I did considering how hard two of the lubes were to load.  Interestingly, the .490 grouped the same as the .495 and at the same elevation.  It hit about an inch right, but that could have simply been the light and my aging eyesight. 

Nothing earthshaking here.  Just sharing some info in case folks are thinking about lubes. 

The picture below is from 50yards benched with the Lehigh Valley lube.  Frankly, my eyesight isn't any better than that.  The gun/load may do better with someone else. The other lubes performed the same.  Odd that the ball weight shifted the POI 1" right, but there you go.  Never know 'til you try. 

God bless,   Marc

[Daryl]

Good test, Marc, thanks. Decent shooting, too.
I'm surprised they all shot the same, though. Good to know. I thought my .69 was the only
rifle that did that with different lubes. I have not tried the newer Hoppe's BP solvent, however
 used to use Hoppe's #9PLUS,  years ago for target shooting. It is possible the rendered lard was
prepared at too high a heat or the hog fat is not as good as bear's lard/grease or oil as a patch lube.

[flinchrocket]

I could never really tell much difference between .490 & .495 except I thought the .495 was more consistent,but I'd have a hard time proving it. I would expect the lard to be a little stiff. I sometimes get the black goo with mink oil if I use to much. Perhaps the fat from inside the hog would be better, thats where bear oil comes from ( I think ).

[Daryl]

Organ fat delivers the most oil.  Suet/lard comes from the outside fat, especially if to much heat is used in rendering.
The bear grease I used in the 70's was all outside fat, seems to me and over time, oil separated out to the top & was poured off.

[flinchrocket]

Well that is sorta my thinking. The inside fat would have more oil and be slicker than lard made from the outside. Maybe no difference. I don't ever remember reading anyone using hog tallow for patch grease. Never know, times might get hard and have to resort to such things.

[Darkhorse]

I think that's a pretty good group, even with those older eyes.
My experience with LeHigh Valley lube is a little different than yours. I'm surprised it's "stickier" than Hoppe's BP lube as I've always considered it to be very slippery. In fact the Original LeHigh Valley lube is my favorite for casual shooting. When I first began working up loads for my .40 Rice barrel I had a lot of trouble seating those .395 balls. Until I tried LHV and it just cut right through the fouling much easier.
Are you absolutely positive it is really LHV? Reason I ask is it seems the "Original LeHigh Valley patch lube" is now off the market. Or it was until recently. I only have a little left over now. I am using Mr. Flintlocks patch lube now. It is supposed to be the same as LHV and it load and shoots just about as good.
I don't use either one for my hunting lubes as a treated patch will dry out and cause a rust ring down in your barrel.
I've done a lot of lube testing over the years and found most of them had strong points and weaker points also. I used to keep all the targets for reference.
Marcruger  all that testing your doing is a good thing. In the end your own shooting will be better. And you just might find that majic lube that shoots all 10's all the time.

[Marcruger]

Hey Guys,   

Daryl, just to be clear the lube I like is Hoppe's BLACK POWDER Lube.  No No.9 involved.  I use No.9, just not on muzzleloaders.

I am not sure where on the boar the fat is from.  He did say that it was a lot clearer when the lard was rendered.  Maybe it hardened as it aged?  Does not really have a smell, but is the consistency of mink oil. 

"I think that's a pretty good group, even with those older eyes."

Many thanks DarkHorse.  My point is that maybe the gun does better than that, but I cannot align the sights on the target at 50 yards any better than that.  Just too far away for my eyesight.  When I was younger......maaaaaybe?   Notice I put a big black circle around the orange sticky to get more definition.  Most times a black inverted triangle is my aiming point. 

"My experience with LeHigh Valley lube is a little different than yours. I'm surprised it's "stickier" than Hoppe's BP lube as I've always considered it to be very slippery. In fact the Original LeHigh Valley lube is my favorite for casual shooting."

I heard very good things about LHV lube as well.  That's why I bought some.  I'll put a picture of my "original formula" bottle label below.  When I first got it, I tested it against the Hoppe's BLACK POWDER Lube.  Same result back then.  Shot fine, good patches after firing, but it just went down harder.  Since I was given the lard, I decided to re-test.  I just shared my experience. 

No idea why it behaves like it does in my bore.  The rod will slip down 6" or 12" then "stick" or "hitch".  I stop, get a better rod grip, and go again.  That way all the way down the bore.  Could just be a combination of load, humidity, bore, and   Just back to back, two test sessions, the Hoppe's was slipperier for me.  Your results sound different.  Isn't experimenting fun?  :-) 

"Are you absolutely positive it is really LHV? Reason I ask is it seems the "Original LeHigh Valley patch lube" is now off the market. Or it was until recently. I only have a little left over now. I am using Mr. Flintlocks patch lube now. It is supposed to be the same as LHV and it load and shoots just about as good."

Please see the label below.  Looks like it to me, unless I bought an imposter. 

"I don't use either one for my hunting lubes as a treated patch will dry out and cause a rust ring down in your barrel."

Absolutely!  I agree totally.  I also would not trust any wet lube to not contaminate the charge if left for a time.  I had it happen once, with the load in the bore for an hour or so.  Was a pain to pull the ball and clean out that bore.  Could have been something else other than the lube, but I don't know what.  Of course, I pulled the flint from the jaws before pulling that load.  I did one test to see how many strikes it would take for a Late Ketland to set off a main charge with no priming powder.  The answer.....one.  I take that lock seriously. 

"I've done a lot of lube testing over the years and found most of them had strong points and weaker points also. I used to keep all the targets for reference."

Same here.  I have a stick of cut out day-glo poster paper targets in my drawer. 

"Marcruger  all that testing your doing is a good thing. In the end your own shooting will be better. And you just might find that majic lube that shoots all 10's all the time."

I like your optimism.  :-) 

My shooting tests were cut short this weekend.  Two fine guys (brothers, one in Army artillery)) heard the flintlock go off, and came to see what it was.  One asked if it was a Daniel Boone type of gun, and I said sure.  I asked if he wanted to hold it, and he looked shocked but took it.  I was setting the muzzleloading hook if I could.  He asked what it is like to shoot, and I said "Stand right there, I'll load it, and you'll shoot it."  Their eyes got wide.  Each shot a couple of rounds, loved it, and we talked a long time.  It was a great time in perfect fall weather here, and super fellowship.  After the sighted in their unmentionable, I got back to shooting.  Another fellow followed the sound and came to see it.  We chatted about it, and it turns out that he has retired from the Army rifle team, and still teaches some.  Great guy, and I am sure is a way, way, way better shot than me.  Humble too. 

Like I said, a wonderful day at the range. 

God Bless,   Marc

[Daryl]

Marc, the lube I was referring to was Hoppe's #9 Plus.  Some years ago and for many years afterwards,
 Hoppe's sold #9 PLUS, which was their black powder lube and solvent.
It is totally different from #9 powder solvent, which was for nitro powders.
I used #9 Plus for 30 or more years, on and off as a patch lube. It worked well indeed.
Appears due to the confusion(perhaps), they have re-named #9 Plus, as "Black Powder Lube".
Sorry for the confusion.

[flinchrocket]

Daryl, does the #9 plus look like moose milk?

[Daryl]

For a hunting lube, I have left my .69 loaded for up to 3 months, with both Track's Mink Oil and with Neetsfoot Oil.
After both tests, the ball hit centre at 100 meters upon firing and without any hesitation. With the mink oil test, I
used a card down on the powder between the patched ball and powder. With the Neetsfoot Oil, no card - still hit
centre upon firing it. Thus I figured if there was any contamination of the 165gr. 2f charge, it was minimal.

[Daryl]

Daryl, does the #9 plus look like moose milk?

It was slightly milky/tannish, but white, no.  The only moose milk I have seen was called just that and was used as a cutting
oil on a lathe.  It was milk white, but thin, like skim milk- however, not bluish.

[hanshi]

I only use two BP Lubes, TOW mink oil and Hoppes BP lube.  I'd always used the thicker #9 BP Lube but am now using the Hoppes BP Lube that's not quite as thick.  I'll need more shooting to be able to tell any difference between the old and new Hoppes.  My chronograph tells me the velocities using mink oil and Hoppes are both near identical.  Accuracy is definitely equal.  I like Hoppes a lot and use it most of the time except for hunting, for which purpose mink oil excels.  I'll also keep using the "Hoppes no #9 Plus" and the mink oil.

[hanshi]

Daryl, does the #9 plus look like moose milk?

It was slightly milky/tannish, but white, no.

Yes, Daryl; that describes the Hoppes BP Lube that's available now since the (really nice) #9 Plus seems to be gone.

[flinchrocket]

For a while Hoppes made a bp solvent that looked like moose milk( yes the kind you use on a mill or lathe) but you could smell the ammonia it had and it worked pretty good. I run a couple patches through the barrel at the end of a shoot,then remove the barrel when I got home and clean it with water. I don't recall anyone using it for a lube.

[Darkhorse]

Marcruger, That bottle looks just like the last ones I bought. A man named Tom L. holds/held the patent for the LHV lube and all the tests I read from that time period really lavished the praise on the Original LHV. Then about the time I got hold of some he sold the rights to a dealer. Shortly after people started complaining because it was different, the new owners had changed the formula. LHV lube lost a lot of customers during this period. Then Tom showed back up and reaquired the rights, then immediately went back to the original formula and called it "Original LeHigh Valley Patch Lube" I shot a lot of it during this time.
Then it seems it got to be rare. And Tom L. had gotten into a buisness venture with someone else and all the LHV went into the venture.  Some of this I know. Some of it I just heard about. I felt it was a shame this product was off the market.
And then it was time for Mr. Flintlocks lube to hit the market. These are the reasons I was wondering if maybe someone was selling counterfit LHV.

When I ordered my Rice barrel it was my understanding the bore would be pretty slick from all the stuff they did to it. But mine had a couple of spots that grabbed my patches and you could feel the roughness. Using Bore butter the first shot loaded fine, you may or may not seat the second shot, and seating the third hardly ever happened. The only thing that worked as a patch lube was Original LeHigh Valley. About the 100th shot the barrel began to shoot and load better. It just got better from there until now and that's one of my favorite barrels. Maybe your barrel just needs a few more lead balls down the bore?

My eyes were still seeing pretty good until a few seasons ago when I was diagnosed with Diabetes. Now I can't tell from day to day how well I can see the sights or how well my resolution will be. Sometimes I just can't see the front sight well enough to get good definition at 50 yards. It took 2 hunting seasons to start getting a handle on my new eyesight. How to tell when's it coming on so I can adjust my sugar or protein levels in my blood. Most times I can tell when my blood sugar level is getting off and my tester is always with me when hunting. And I consider the rear peep to be priceless.

[Daryl]

I found Hoppe's #9 Plus to be not quite as slippery as LHV and Mr. Flintlock's patch lube, by feel, between finger and thumb.
As to shooting they were all about equal. I recall the griping about the NEW LHV being sold by Trackofthewolf, but found the
shooting aspects of it to be remarkable, then the "Old" Formula came back and I found it equal to the new Track's formula. I
could see no difference in them, perhaps due to the loads I use?

Mr. Flintlock's lube shoots the same for me as both of the LHV's & came out after LHV went by the board.  The only rifle I shot
the mink oil in recently (within 20 years),  was the .32 and it loaded easier every time I shot and loaded - up to 55 shots max
I shot in that rifle on one trail. No wiping.
Actually, only the first loading in the "clean" barrel needed choking up on the 5/16" hickory rod to get it down. After the first one,
they were all really slick and easy loading, forefinger and thumb on the rod, only. No wiping. My patches were soaked in heated
mink oil, then the excess squeezed out. They were still plenty greasy which I didn't like. I had to have a piece of patch material to
wipe my hand off after loading. No problems with greasy fingers with LHV or Mr.Flintock's lube, slick as those lubes were, which I
find interesting.
They, along with WWWF+Neetsfoot Oil & spit all load easily for me. I really see no difference.