Swiss vs Goex velocity

[Justin Urbantas]

I've heard from many people that Swiss is going to give you increased velocity over Goex. Do you guys know an approximate % of increase?  I would figure it out if my chronograph was reliable. Thanks

[Bob McBride]

I put a chart up at the end of the vid.

[Marcruger]

Thank you Bob.

I was told that you can roughly add 10% when going from Swiss to Goex to get in the ballpark velocity-wise.  I believe I feel the difference in faster recoil with Swiss.

The same rule of thumb for going from 3f to 2f.  It won’t be exact, but you’ll at least be in the neighborhood.  I don’t have a chrono.  It seems to work pretty well based on POI on target - hence being an okay number to use.

Bob, perhaps a video of a chrono test - ladder up charges Swiss versus Goex, and 3f versus 2f?
I am wondering if the percentage would change as the charges change? 

Interesting questions.  🙂

God bless, Marc

[Semisane]

Here's a chrono study I did last year.

[JPK]

Thanks for the well done data.

[Hungry Horse]

Yeh, spend the extra money on Swiss powder, so your miss can get there faster, and you’ll have a good excuse to buy a high end crony so you know for sure your miss got there faster.

  Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

Semisane's test notes are quite important,  due to the charges being actually weighed, not thrown from the same measure. If using the same stricken measure for each, the results
will be even more skewed as Swiss powder is heavier per volume measure, than-is GOEX. What I find quite interesting, is the Swiss 2F and 3F give quite close to the same velocity
on average - only 20fps difference in average. I was quite surprised by the extreme spreads, though.  I did not get such extremes when testing my .40, .45 and .69 calibre rifles. My
variations over 10 shots were usually under 15fps and with the .69, under 10fps spread, using patched balls and shooting "dirty", thus displaying a constant bore condition, shot to shot.

[Justin Urbantas]

thanks guys.  It looks like  the Swiss 2f is giving about 12% more velocity than the Goex. That's pretty significant. Offsets the cost difference a bit if you use a reduced charge. It's no secret that like 95% of international champions shoot Swiss.

[snapper]

I used Goex for years and I liked it.  I also like that it is made in the USA, that does mean quite a bit to me.

With that being said, I started using Swiss when it first came to the USA.   I have the first cans that were Goex cans with Swiss labels on it.  I also switched to using Swiss powder for everything.    I do still shoot Goex when I get some but I dont use it for target work when it score matters.

I like to keep things simple and basically have just 2f and some 3f powder all swiss.   I also use 86 grains of 2f in 7 or more rifles.  Keeps it simple if I need to grab a pre weight charge of powder since I only use 86 grains in each of these rifles.  I know that people will think it is not possible to work up a good accurate load for multiple rifles with the same charge of powder, but I do it.

Virtually ALL International shooters/champions use swiss.   Two reasons.   First it is good powder.  Second, when you go to a match outside of the USA, they will only have swiss available for you to use.   No Goex.

When the USA International teams head to Germany and Hungary next year we will give the host country our powder orders before we get there and it will be only swiss powder. 

Powder is one of the cheapest parts of shooting for me.  Hotels, airfare, meals, mileage, match fees add up.

Fleener
Captain US International Long Range Muzzle Loading Team

[Herb]

See https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=58152.0
Here is my powder comparison in that topic.

Here is my 24" .58 used in that comparison.


Today I shot Swiss 2F in my Bridger Hawken copies.   Used 100 grains by weight-corrected measure, .526 Rush Creek roundballs, .016 crush to .010 linen patches.  My first Bridger copy with a 32" Green River barrel averaged 1888 fps with 31 spread for five shots.  My second Bridger copy with a 33 1/8"  Oregon Barrel with a 1 in 48" twist averaged 1919/19 for four shots.  The first Bridger is included in the chart above.

Another copy of the .54 Kit Carson Hawken averaged for four shots of Swiss 2F 1888/66.  With four shots of S 1 1/2F it went 1724/120.

[Daryl]

Good reminder, Herb - in your .58 test, Swiss 2F gave higher speed than Swiss 3F.
I found a similar trait with GOEX powder in my .69, in that 2F produced higher speeds than did 3F, even though that rifle has only a 31" bl.
I wonder what the difference is if any, in the .54 rifles?

[Bob Roller]

A few years ago I made a "bonehead"test with a bullet gun (451) using OLD DuPont,
Goex and Swiss 3fg and it appeared that the flight time with Swiss is much shorter
and as HH says,you can record the miss sooner.I still have that can of Swiss and the DuPont
plus some Elephant and Curtis&Harvey.One of our locals called it Heartless&Scurvey .
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

LOL Bob - Heartless & Scurvy is what Taylor and I have called C&H since the 60's's, when it was all we could get.

[wolf]

I will trade speed for accuracy any day! I have several cans of swiss I would trade for good ol goex,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[recurve]

  Swiss  simply WORKS better for me. giving tighter groups than Goex did in my guns with less fouling

[wolf]

5 shots 50yds goex 3F 80gr. 62 jaeger. don't know the speed but it will shoot through a treated 6x6, it will kill anything that needs killin here in SC,,,,,,,,,,

[Bob Roller]

I will trade speed for accuracy any day! I have several cans of swiss I would trade for good ol goex,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Speed is great but accuracy is FINAL at least according to an old U.S.Marshal .
Bob Roller 

[flinchrocket]

I will trade speed for accuracy any day! I have several cans of swiss I would trade for good ol goex,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Speed is great but accuracy is FINAL at least according to an old U.S.Marshal .
Bob Roller

That sounds like Marshall Ralph Hooker.

[Bob Roller]

I will trade speed for accuracy any day! I have several cans of swiss I would trade for good ol goex,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Speed is great but accuracy is FINAL at least according to an old U.S.Marshal .
Bob Roller

That sounds like Marshall Ralph Hooker.

You got it right.Marshal Ralph Hooker was a long time friend and we met at Friendship in 1965.
I had a room rented for myself on the Mill Road and h was sleeping in his car.I paid the lady
another $5 and the Marshal had a comfortable place to stay.We sat up until 2AM and discussed
a variety of things including our personal defense pistols. *edited to meet ALR rules* We were friends until he passed away and I got a nice letter from his daughter June
with whom he lived about his high regard for me and the help I gave him when he built a muzzle loader.
He said he owned a long rifle that could be traced to Daniel Boone and he would copy it for anyone
who wanted it. He used the Maslin lock and my triggers.I made a lot of the Maslins but haven't seen
one for years.Thanks for bring up an old and now departed friend.
Bob Roller

[flinchrocket]

Bob, I have read and retread his book many times. I always get a chuckle out of some of the things he says. He pretty much just called them like he saw them and if you didn't like it you would just have to get over it or live with it,your choice. It is a really good book and I would recommend it to anyone interested in muzzleloading. I sorta wished I had gotten a chance to meet him, but I didn't ,so I will settle for the next best thing.

[Bob Roller]

Bob, I have read and retread his book many times. I always get a chuckle out of some of the things he says. He pretty much just called them like he saw them and if you didn't like it you would just have to get over it or live with it,your choice. It is a really good book and I would recommend it to anyone interested in muzzleloading. I sorta wished I had gotten a chance to meet him, but I didn't ,so I will settle for the next best thing.

Is it called "Born out of season"?I have it and hsve read it more than once,
Bob Roller

[Jeff Murray]

Born Out of Season is a good read.  good time to read it again.  Another book that features an interesting character is The Last Of the Mountain Men by Harold Peterson.  Its about Sylvan Hart and his life in the mountains on the River of No Return.  The trail into his place would challenge any modern day mountain man.

[Leatherbark]

For what it is worth in 2008 I had a Pedersoli Blue Ridge 50 caliber flintlock.  I chronographed 80 grains of Goex 3f and 80 grains of Swiss 3g at 15 feet from the muzzle using a .490 ball and .018 ticking I think lubed with bore butter.  The Goex chronographed in the 1700 fps range and the Swiss was slightly over 1900 fps out of the 39 inch barrel.  Seemed the Swiss was close to 150 fps faster.

Bob

[Daryl]

5 shots 50yds goex 3F 80gr. 62 jaeger. don't know the speed but it will shoot through a treated 6x6, it will kill anything that needs killin here in SC,,,,,,,,,,

The velocities are merely interesting to note and to find loads that produce great shot to shot consistency. That usually, although not always, contributes to good accuracy.
Thus, if you chronograph a bunch of loads, out of curiosity, you can pick ones that produce consistent results and THOSE should give the best accuracy.
A gun that shoots into 8 to 10" at 50 yards will kill bush deer all day long, however I do not consider that accurate enough - and if that is the best it did, I would not own it.

[hanshi]

I've never had a specific definition for accuracy; If they do what I want in the field, then that suits me just fine.  An inaccurate rifle is something I've never really owned.  As long as they hit where aimed I call them accurate.  Tack drivers are nice but I am no longer a "tack driver" shooter.  Only after a load has been found that works for me is any thought given to velocity.  After many decades of BP shooting I still have guns/loads that haven't seen a chronograph.