Author Topic: Wolfgang Haga attributions  (Read 3294 times)

Offline WESTbury

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Wolfgang Haga attributions
« on: October 11, 2020, 02:20:05 AM »
I have a dumb question, which I am eminently qualified to ask, about the great many Kentucky Rifles that have been "attributed" to Wolfgang Haga. Case in point, Lot#1063 in the upcoming Nov 17 Morphy auction.

Are there any Wolfgang Haga "signed" rifles in existence? Every book I have read or auction catalog I have seen has Haga attributed rifles but no signed Haga rifles. Naturally, I do not have all the books or auction catalogs that have ever been printed, by a long shot.

Thanks in advance for all of your replies.
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #1 on: October 11, 2020, 02:27:08 AM »
None to my knowledge.
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Offline 120RIR

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2020, 04:33:27 AM »
I asked that very same question a couple of years back when I picked up my second original Penn. rifle...a nice all-original Haga-attributed piece.  I believe about all that can be said is that they're classic 3rd-4th quarter 18th century Reading-area rifles.  Maybe that elusive Haga fella', maybe not.

Offline HIB

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2020, 08:35:08 AM »
Gentlemen,  I have personally handled and examined  over 25 rifles attributed to Wolfgang Haga, possibly more. I have owned six, still have 2.  Several of those opportunities came as a grouping of 4 or 5 rifles together. It was during those grouping studies it became obvious there were 3 or 4 different hands involved. The carvings varied from typical C  scrolls, to tobacco leaves, to intertwining vines. Some guns were late, others were early. All had Reading features [side plate, ovid cheek rest, spoon finial trigger guards]. The most obvious difference in those that were different was bulk and forend thickness. I concluded most of the earlier pieces were made in the same shop, but by different gunsmiths. It is entirely possible there was an actual Haga in there somewhere. None were signed, but one of the later rifles was stamped with Haga's son-in-laws initials on the oblique flat similar to Fichthorn Jr. It bore strong early Reading features but dated post 1800 by virtue of the initials. The gunsmith didn't work in Reading until after 1810. 

There is a little history that seems to have gotten lost along the way. Please allow me to take a moment to explain:  Wolfgang manage to blow up his shop in the late 1750's, the accident was published in a Pa. newspaper. The KRF has a copy somewhere. And, ironically, the attribution to Haga and Reading evolved around the simple fact most examples found in the 30's, 40's and 50's were found in or near Reading and Haga had been well documented as a Reading gunsmith by then.  Easy and logical match, right. in addition, at about the time, or a little before, Kindig published his book, a story circulated that a rifle had been found with Reading engraved on the patchbox lid. The source was good and I spent 60 years looking for the gun. I finally found it 3 or 4 years ago in Dr. Murphy's collection. The gun had been bequeathed to him by and old collecting buddy many years previously.  The gun fit the mold perfectly, although it was a 1800 version. It was not signed and I have never seen a signed example of Haga's work.

Interestingly, a copy of Haga's will and estate settlement exists.  It is an interesting read. I'd be happy to share it with anyone who asks. I believe it is also on one of the KRF's cd's.  Wes White Documents, if I'm not mistaken.

Anyway, the answer to the original question is; the Morphys gun could be a Haga, a Shener, a Fichthorn Sr. or any one of those other smiths that worked in Haga's 18th century shop. I am 99% certain the gun was made in the Reading area.  With respect,  HIB

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2020, 03:10:03 PM »
Eric & Henry,

Thanks for your input on Haga. In my opinion, what this boils down to is obvious, people offering an unsigned rifle, that fits a general style, are using name recognition as a selling point. Until one of Haga's rifles surfaces that is signed, one should discount the attribution as fantasy rather than fact and pass on acquiring one of these alleged Haga rifles with their inflated prices.

A few months ago I posted some advise that an old time collector gave me, which applies in this situation: "Never buy a gun you have to explain."

Kent


 
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Buck

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2020, 05:49:24 PM »
Henry - always enjoy it when you share your vast knowledge and always a good read, thank you.

Westbury - another gentleman shared some of his Haga research with me several years ago. I'll give you the cliff notes version - Haga lost his hand in that accident. As Henry stated, he had several gunsmiths producing weapons in his shop. This gentleman stated that Haga also had significant holdings in land and other ventures, farming/property and the rest I cannot remember. To the point - it would appear that Haga was a true entrepreneur. This gentleman searched vigorously for Haga's grave site, when he eventually found the grave he took note that the headstones in the cemetery were all made of Limestone with the exception of Haga's and his wife's - they were made of Granite. Anyone who's worked with these materials knows that Limestone is an extremely soft material (sedimentary void of silicates) and is easily manipulated / shaped. Granite on the other hand is the the hardest material on the planet second to diamond, and the work involved in shaping that material with primitive tools is costly. Haga was apparently a man of wealth - that said, it's possible he may never had built a rifle - only owned the shop among many of his other ventures. I would think he had some involvement in rifle manufacture. As I stated above, this was word of mouth and I have never seen the research first hand - the gentleman is/was an established publisher. Many of us in the Longrifle arena own several of his published works.

Buck

 


Offline WESTbury

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2020, 06:01:40 PM »
Buck---That is great information, thank-you. Also, thanks for your insight into what may have been Haga's business model.

Kent

"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline spgordon

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2020, 07:46:11 PM »
This question--how can any rifles be attributed to a maker if there is no signed copy of his work against which the unsigned rifles can be compared?--has come up several times, usually linked to Haga. But the search function on the list seems no longer to reach back further than a few months, so I cannot find those earlier discussions.

I agree that it makes no sense whatsoever to continue to (and, indeed, it never made sense to) attribute rifles to a maker such as Haga if there is no signed piece of work with which to anchor the attributions.

I understand why attributions to Haga happened in the past (he was the best known Reading gunsmith and there were unsigned guns from Reading, so ....) but I really don't think that reasoning should convince anybody any more.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2020, 08:53:49 PM »
I understand why attributions to Haga happened in the past (he was the best known Reading gunsmith and there were unsigned guns from Reading, so ....) but I really don't think that reasoning should convince anybody any more.

Scott---I believe that you put it very succinctly with this sentence.

Kent
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2020, 08:58:09 PM »
Auction house and authors are often constrained by the attributions of the collectors who own or are selling the guns. By now about everyone who seriously studies “Kentucky” rifles knows the Haga-attributed rifles are just unsigned Reading rifles. I doubt the attribution thing will ever die off on these guns.
Andover, Vermont

Offline eastwind

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2020, 11:24:31 PM »
There is an old adage that one knows he is being talked about when one’s ear itches. My ears just twitched.
Unless Buck knows another “gentlemen” quoting this particular Haga expertise, I suspect he may be referring to me. If so, Buck can confirm or deny my claim to that information.
  In any case, I do offer this expansion of the information Buck tells so well.  Haga – as we will refer to him is actually named Wolfgang Hagens – not Hachem, Hachen, Hagi, Haga or some other creation of his name. Granted, he is well recorded in Berks County records as a gunsmith as Haga, or Hagen, and his “factory” explosion reported in the Reading Adler says he was a gunsmith on 4th Street, Reading. But we know the constant alteration of spelling names in 18th Century America should be considered.
 I say his name is Hagens after some diligent research, when I found that he was a Deacon in the Schwartzwald Church in Exeter Township. I visited the church and the preacher told me no Haga was listed in their roles-but they did have an Elizabeth and Wolfgang Hagens listed. Needless to say, the standing church was certainly not the one Hagens attended. That original 18th century structure was across the street, and when the new church was built, they had to either move or destroy the gravesites. With no room at the new church’s cemetery some 30 gravestones were moved or eliminated. The preacher did not know where any of them were.
A year or so later when searching a cemetery in Lancaster looking for the grave of Peter Gonter, I instead ran across Gonter’s wife’s headstone right next to two separate stones: One engraved Wolfgang Hagens and next to it, Elizabeth Hagens. Both were of the same ornate carved design about 4’ high in a dark grey stone more typically found in Berks County. It seems Daughter had her parent’s stones moved to Lancaster to be next to her. Even in this Lancaster cemetery (with Pres. Buchanan’s stone 10 feet away) the two stones were clearly made for a couple of substantial means, lending credence to Hagen’s success as a businessman. Incidentally, he owned some 3,000 + acres of land and two buildings + home around Reading. More on this later. Between those two Hagens stones and their daughter was a small flat lying stone almost obliterated. I took that as one of the children of Hagens or Gonter, given its insignificance to the other stones. Yes, it is possible that the daughter created the stones in Lancaster for her parents, but the known gunsmith’s daughter married to another gunsmith, Peter Gonter, didn’t just place her stone next to some strange couple. Remember the Reading church said the name was Hagens. I later found (and should have guessed) that Peter Gonter is buried in the Moravian cemetery in nearby Lititz. Gonter is shown as “son-in-law” on Wolfgang Hagens will, further proof of his connection.
I have photos of these sites among my 4,000+ gun photos, but it will take some time to find them, if interested.
I knew the final nail in this research could be my suspicion that the Hagens’ stones were indeed brought from Reading as a result of the Schwaldzwald church’s move. I contacted a local genealogist who was willing to go to the Lancaster cemetery and give me his opinion. Sure enough, he said the two Hagens headstones were not carved from Lancaster County’s indigenous stone and probably came from stone north of Lancaster- like the Berks/Lehigh/Schuylkill County mountains.
Conclusion: Why would two people named Hagens be buried next to their daughter who was married to Peter Gonter, another gunsmith (likely trained by Wolfgang). And would they not know their own name? And wouldn’t the daughter know how her Father and Mother’s name was spelled? And what are the chances that another couple with a gunsmith husband by the name of Hagens is buried next to their daughter? It fits too well to ever again call the elusive Reading gunsmith - anything but Wolfgang Hagens.
  Most of the above is from my perpetual project for another Berks County book, so I would like to continue this Hagens story and address the Morphy rifles and attributions in another segment if you’re not too bored yet.
By the way, I only today found I was previously asked to weigh in on Gideon Angstadt -  maybe next time.
Patrick Hornberger
Patrick Hornberger

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2020, 12:32:02 AM »
Sometime back I ran into am older gentleman who lived in Clayton, New Mexico. His name was Walter Haga, (he pronounced his last name as 'Hayga" rather than the hard 'a' we have used. Didn't get to talk with him too much other than he had come west from Reading, PA to live the western life. On a subsequent trip to Clayton, I learned that he had returned to PA to finish out his life. Still wondering what his connection to the gun making family was, if any? And,  if the name was originally 'Hagen,'  why was he using the Haga spelling? Who shortened it from 'Hagen' to 'Haga' and when?
Dick

Offline jdm

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2020, 12:34:29 AM »
Henry, Buck, Patrick . Thank you for  the enlightening information. 
JIM

Offline Buck

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2020, 01:45:32 AM »
Jim - not much light coming from me on this one, like you - I was glad to hear from Henry and Patrick.

Patrick - I’ll have to retrace my steps and figure out how I pulled that maneuver to get you to respond. I’m glad your well my friend.

Regards,

Buck

Offline smart dog

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2020, 02:01:37 AM »
Hi Folks,
Great information. The Morphy auction includes 2 rifles by J P Beck that I always labeled as early Reading guns.  Is it now the consensus of collectors that J. P. Beck apprenticed in Reading and produced a number of rifles that were previously considered as early Reading products possibly associated with Hagen?

dave
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Offline spgordon

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2020, 02:20:27 AM »
Great detective work, Patrick! It is good to "hear" your voice again here.

Somehow found these earlier discussions:

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=35628.0

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=41786.0
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 02:36:10 AM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Karl Kunkel

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2020, 03:44:58 AM »
Patrick,

Always great to read your contributions here.  Look forward to your next book.
Kunk

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2020, 04:49:24 AM »
so I would like to continue this Hagens story and address the Morphy rifles and attributions in another segment if you’re not too bored yet.
Patrick Hornberger
Patrick,
Not even one tiny little bit of boredom in sight. Thanks for your very informative posting and thanks to the others who have made this thread very interesting.
Kent
« Last Edit: October 12, 2020, 02:27:16 PM by WESTbury »
"We are not about to send American Boys 9 to 10 thousand miles away from home to do what Asian Boys ought to be doing for themselves."
President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2020, 05:03:11 AM »
Hi Folks,
Great information. The Morphy auction includes 2 rifles by J P Beck that I always labeled as early Reading guns.  Is it now the consensus of collectors that J. P. Beck apprenticed in Reading and produced a number of rifles that were previously considered as early Reading products possibly associated with Hagen?

dave

I’ve not seen the first written attribution of those brass box  “apparently Berks County” rifles to JP Beck. I’m a little mystified by it because there are signed JP Beck rifles that appear to be within his signature style that appear to be as early or even earlier than these rifles. So, how does it make sense that these rifles were his apprentice period rifles?
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2020, 12:21:49 PM »
I'm sure no Beck expert but I've not seen any of his signed rifles that look earlier than these, to my eye?  The unsigned rifle was for years attributed to Reading of course, but not known as to maker.  Then @ 10-12 years ago or so, Mike turned up the Chrisdianborgey / Christian Georgey (not sure if anyone agrees on the owner's name) rifle with the Beck signature.  It's a great gun and obviously puts a name to the unsigned gun as they were clearly made by the same guy.  It's a pretty stout rifle and "in hand" does have a fairly early feel to it.

I'm not sure as to whether I buy into the "apprentice" concept, because neither rifle looks like an apprentice rifle.  They are great rifles and quite accomplished, and if you take the signature at face value, I would rather view them as a different style based upon a different location and market prior to establishing his more well-known style which he apparently maintained for the remainder of his working life.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #20 on: October 12, 2020, 05:26:32 PM »
I probably have brain block on the JP Beck- attributed Berks County rifles. I think a wooden patchbox JP Beck had me automatically thinking 1770s-ish. Or maybe I was trying to figure how he went from there to develop his own style, and it felt too much a jump. It never helps to wonder or reason too much. Just accept new data and set a new baseline.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Wolfgang Haga attributions
« Reply #21 on: October 12, 2020, 05:51:53 PM »
Nah, question everything!  Trying to get a handle on a lot of this stuff is like trying to learn automotive mechanics when all you have to look at is an exhaust manifold from a 1977 Chevy Suburban, part of a Quadrajet and the chrome tailpipe from an old Trans Am.  We've got lots to look at, but I'm certain that it pales in comparison to the pieces that *didn't* make it.

Every now and then, some piece turns up out of left field that turns lots of things on their heads.  This 'Chrisdianborgey' rifle.  The griffin Oerter.  The restocked 1785 'Colhoun' rifle from SC.  Ernie Cowan's little short rifle.  And even then, when one of these pieces turns up, are we REALLY getting the whole story?  Best we can do is to use our brains and try to stay open minded at the same time.

I have talked to people that see things around this rifle - and a couple of others, not just singling this one out - a little differently, and maybe they're correct.  I don't know.  But I hesitate to put it in print on a public forum.  I'm getting older and less hotheaded.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!