I hate this lock

[Dave K]

Very good question. I do know that L.C. is busy on fixing locks and many will wonder why I have these locks. It is because they are the only game in town when it comes to matching rights and lefts in locks. I would not be afraid if sending them to a distant place as I am sending them a pretty far piece from here in Ohio. Once these locks will be addressed and tuned, they will be trouble free as any lock should be. Just plan on adding about another 35% to the price of the lock to get it working as intended. Now many have responded that this is part of the learning curve of muzzleloading. This is the part I have no interest in learning and this is why I buy a ready made lock and not a kit. I true kit gun would be like pointing at a tree and saying there is your stock, not get it out of the tree and then pointing at a pile of metal and telling me that the barrel,lock and furniture is all there, just get to work on making it.

I think those that posted were responding to the title that started this thread. It begs to get the responses that were given. I currently have 1 Classic, 4 Manton's and 2 Durrs Egg's.

[Naphtali]

. . . I currently have 1 Classic, 4 Manton's and 2 Durrs Egg's.

My sets are Manton, Durs Egg, and Bailes, left-hand and right-hand -- that have been specially cast to my specifications. In theory, they will become locks comparable with those built-to-order by Peter Alexander . . . in theory. Well, the potential is there.

[Dave K]

Always confusing to me about the names of the locks. TOW calls them on thing and L&R calls them something else. I was wrong in what I posted. I have the same pairs of locks a you do. The Bailes locks are currently sent in for tuning. The other 5 locks are on guns that are working.

[Pete G.]

After reading this thread, I have begun to think the problem I have is a frizzen that may be too hard. What is the best procedure for a garage workshop?

[J.D.]

temper in the kitchen oven at 400 degrees, for an hour. You can leave it in the oven to cool, or take it out and lay it on a folded cloth.

Oven thermostats are notoriously unreliable, so use a coupla good oven thermometers to  get an average oven temp, as a way to reliably temper the frizzen at the correct temperature.  Initially set the oven on say, 300 degrees, then check the oven thermometers after 15-20 minutes. Adjust the temp as needed for another 45 minutes, or so.

Longer, at the correct temp, won't hurt as much as a too little time at temp, so longer is better, but IMHO, anything over an hour is probably not necessary.

God bless

[Dphariss]

If no good oven thermometer around polish a piece of steel clean and put it in the oven at 375-385 for an hour AFTER PREHEAT.
It should be just slightly straw (golden tan) colored if so its pretty close to what you need. If its going into brown its a little too hot maybe and needs to be cut back 10-20 degrees.
Light straw is about what you want. if this still seems too hard then up it 10 degrees and see how that works.

Dan

[Acer Saccharum]

I have a Bailes which is a most quick lock, very reliable. The hammer is light, which does not jar the gun much after firing. Some of the bigger locks cause quite a vibration in the gun, not so with the Bailes. I have had to replace the frizzen spring twice. But that I accept as part of the game. I have two frizzen springs and two mains on my siler.

Some of the spring problems could have been avoided had I known more at the time. Part of the learning curve.

Acer

[SCLoyalist]

J.D.  take a look at http://muzzleloadermag.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/20610091/m/570104381

I've been following both your thread here and the thread above for several days.  Between the two threads, I now  have some ideas to try to get better flint life and reliability out of my L&R Classic lock.   One experiment I tried yesterday was using a 5/8" flint instead of the usual (and slightly longer) 3/4" flint.  It actually looked like it was working better that way.  The author of the other thread seems to have greatly increased flint life by filing down the mainspring some.

Anyway, perhaps the muzzleloadermag thread might be of interest.  Rgds, and good luck, SCL

[northmn]

When you file a mainspring, file length ways of the spring not cross ways or you can cause breakage. You want any scratches to go with the bend not crossways of it. This is one area where the hated Dremmel can work with those sanding drums as you can remove metal in that manner.  I had to work down both a frizzen spring and a main spring and balance them to get the flints to last and the lock to work correct.  I had a cheap Lott lock once that would not spark well becasue the frizzen spring was too weak I finally put a roller in it to make it compress more and it worked.  Sold the gun and the owner was quite happy with it (as was I and wished I would have kept it).

DP

[J.D.]

Yes, part of the tuning will be reducing the weight of the springs, somewhat. The feather spring will be reduced in weight until it's right, then the mainspring reduced, in weight, to balance.

In reading the thread on the Muzzleloader Mag site, it was suggested that material be removed from the width of a spring, rather than from the thickness.

IMHO, a wider, thin spring is more durable and flexible than a thick, narrow one.

One DOES need to be careful about removing too much material from the thickness of a spring, but IMHO, it's the best way to go.

The poster on MLM site filed a wider bevel on the bottom of the mainspring. IMHO, that is probably the best way to go, for someone who doesn't know what they are doing. I will probably begin by grinding a wider bevel on each spring, then go from there.

I might even temper the springs, as per Jerry's instructions. Can't go too far wrong with Jerry's instructions. Shoulda done it long ago. 

Thanks and God bless

[Acer Saccharum]

I once approach Jim Chambers about a lock that exploded flints*, not that this is your problem, but he said that you can't have springs too strong. But they must be balanced, in that if you have a strong main, you should also have a strong frizzen spring.

Your frizzen should flip open by itself after it is about 1/3 open, so this will mean playing where it cams over. What you don't want is a weak friz spring that will let the frizzen bounce back onto the hammer or the flint.


*this lock literrally made the flint fly into pieces..... the answer was that the frizzen was too soft.

[Dphariss]

After reading this thread, I have begun to think the problem I have is a frizzen that may be too hard. What is the best procedure for a garage workshop?

Heat to 375-385 degrees for an hour in a preheated oven.
Use an oven thermometer so you do not overheat.


Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Regarding removal of steel to lighten springs...be aware that taking steel from the flat part as opposed to the edge, reduces the strength of the spring 8 X faster.  In other words you have to remove a lot more of the width to get the same reduction as taking it from the thickness.

[northmn]

I do not know who the poster was on the other site, but I used to have to work on a lot of locks in the 70's and 80's.  Some brought me some that did not work at all off of rifles made by Navy Arms, CVA and who knows.  Quite often you bought springs until one worked, a mainspring had to be forged or a Siler fitted.  Often I could get one to work by changing the position of the mainspring so that it compressed more.  There were also locks made for builders.  One was so bad that the manufacturer sold a radio active frizzen shoe that had to be taken off of the market because it was a little too "hot"  When someone asks a question about one of these on the website I have to count to 10, and try to diplomatically say they were not worth a darn.  Advantages and disadvantages of spring types can be discussed till Hades freezes.   Too wide a mainspring and you have barrel contact.  etc. All work, even the coil spring used by TC and Lyman if the frizzen is properly tempered and the frizzen spring is balanced.  Balancing the mainspring and frizzen spring permits the spark to reach the pan when it should.  As to springs never being too strong, one I saw was so strong it was awkward to cock the gun.  Compared to what I used to work with the newer locks are great.  About any can be made to work very well.


DP

[rich pierce]

Regarding removal of steel to lighten springs...be aware that taking steel from the flat part as opposed to the edge, reduces the strength of the spring 8 X faster.  In other words you have to remove a lot more of the width to get the same reduction as taking it from the thickness.

Just like tillering bows!   

[northmn]

_{Regarding removal of steel to lighten springs...be aware that taking steel from the flat part as opposed to the edge, reduces the strength of the spring 8 X faster.  In other words you have to remove a lot more of the width to get the same reduction as taking it from the thickness.}

Just like tillering bows!   [/sub]

Been there done that too.  Thats why a finished fiberglass bow cannot be lightened easily, they have to take it off the sides.


DP

[Daryl]

Pete - re-read Taylor's post on re-tempering (drawing) out the hardness to the correct degree.
Sorry- thought Taylor had posted how to put the lock in the oven at &F degrees for one or two hours to draw out some of the hardening - maybe he'll respond now if he reads this. I probably have the time and temperature wrong.  I think it's 450F, but not sure.

[Dphariss]

Regarding removal of steel to lighten springs...be aware that taking steel from the flat part as opposed to the edge, reduces the strength of the spring 8 X faster.  In other words you have to remove a lot more of the width to get the same reduction as taking it from the thickness.

Taylor is correct.

Narrowing a spring on the edge rather than thinning it will result in having to take off quite a lot of metal before getting any real result and at that point the spring may well "collapse" and lose far more strength than wanted and likely it will become very mushy/lifeless and mostly useless.

Carefully taper the thickness like a buggy whip, there is little need to thin the spring back where it is bent for example unless its very short. But it should be a nice even taper down the length. Width need not taper much at all.
Thinning/tapering the upper leg of a mainspring can help as well. But be careful at the bend.
Narrowing springs is something often found with hobby home level "tuning" of Colt SAA revolver mainsprings. Makes replacement necessary in most cases.

Dan

[ol vern]

temper in the kitchen oven at 400 degrees, for an hour. You can leave it in the oven to cool, or take it out and lay it on a folded cloth.

Oven thermostats are notoriously unreliable, so use a coupla good oven thermometers to  get an average oven temp, as a way to reliably temper the frizzen at the correct temperature.  Initially set the oven on say, 300 degrees, then check the oven thermometers after 15-20 minutes. Adjust the temp as needed for another 45 minutes, or so.

Longer, at the correct temp, won't hurt as much as a too little time at temp, so longer is better, but IMHO, anything over an hour is probably not necessary.

God bless

When you re temper a part do you have reharden it first ?

[Acer Saccharum]

When you re temper a part do you have reharden it first ?

If your part is already too hard, a re-temper can be done to take some of the hardness out.

If your part is already too soft, a re-temper will not help. You must re-harden, and then temper to the hardness you require.

[J.D.]

Just thought I would post an up-date on the lock.

After tempering the frizzen at 400 degrees, for an hour, it sparks much better than before.

The springs were tempered at 700 degrees, and they don't feel quite as muscle bound as before, though IMHO, it would probably be hard to really tell any appreciable difference in the feel of the springs without test equipment that is somewhat more precise than my old fingers.

A well used flint was placed in the jaws and struck several times. While the sparks were nothing to write home about, the well used flint did strike enough sparks to light off a pan of powder.

I'm beginning to like this lock...at least for now. 

On tempering, the machinist manual as well as other books on heat treating mention 15 minutes, at temp, for every 1/4 inch of thickness of a part.

Why does everyone insist on tempering frizzens for an hour, at temp?

I do it because that's what everyone recommends, but is it really necessary?

Thanks, and God bless

[Acer Saccharum]

On tempering, the machinist manual as well as other books on heat treating mention 15 minutes, at temp, for every 1/4 inch of thickness of a part.

Why does everyone insist on tempering frizzens for an hour, at temp?

You get a lot of opinion, but not much science here.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It does not hurt to hold a part at temperature for an hour.  It ensures that the steel is a uniform temperature.  27 minutes is likely perfect.  But who cares if it just sits and soaks at the right temperature.  I like Jerry Huddleston's analogy of the biscuit in the oven.  It may be brown on the outside, but still raw inside.