I hate this lock

[J.D.]

I mean I really hate this lock. The lock in question is a 20 year old L&R Early classic with the roller frizzen. It eats flints, doesn't spark like  it should.  And the danged flints gotta be just so long, or short, as the case may be, or they bash into the pan. I really hate this lock.

IMHO, a decent lock should take nearly any flint that will fit into the jaws. This one won't. Did I mention that I hate this lock.

Moreover, when the frizzen was removed, for a thorough  cleaning, the roller and pin fell out. I mean I really hate this lock. Never really liked it, and after yesterday, I really hate this lock...with a passion.

I tried to interchange the internals of a Chambers Late Ketland, just to see how close they are. Not close enough.

The screw pattern is different on the two locks, so it would be a bear to make Chambers internals work on the L&R.

So, does anyone have any idea as to what options I might have to make a decent lock out of, what in my opinion is a POS.

I'm thinking of retempering the frizzen at a 400 degrees and building  up the shoulder that contacts the top of the lockplate, but what about the tumbler.

So, what would my options be with the tumbler, other than making a new tumbler that allows a longer rotation of the cock?

Thanks, and God bless

[J. Talbert]

I have replaced a Vance Lock (The lock which became the L&R Classic) with a Chambers'
Gunmakers Lock.   The pan and sear positions were nearly identical.  There's a small gap behind the pan fence.  The plate itself, and thus the inlet had to be enlarged slightly because the sear spring on the Chambers is mounted a little higher.  Also the bolster on the Vance was a little wider than the Chambers, so the Chambers sits a little deeper.

I'm just finishing the process now and haven't yet shot it, but it appears it will work OK.

Jeff

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

If I read you correctly, this is the same lock.  Mine I purchased in 1987 and is marked Vance, on the inside of the plate.  L & R wisely purchased it and produces it exactly the same now, except for the addition to the underside of the frizzen of the "waterproofing" lump.  I think you might be allowing frustration interfere with its function.  I really like the lock, now.  Mine didn't spark well either, unless the flint was new, and very sharp.  Remedy, reharden and temper the frizzen - it was too hard.  I took a page from Jerry Huddleston's book and dramatically improved the lock's function, just by that one thing.  L & R notoriously leaves their parts too hard.  As a result, the inside part of the toe of the frizzen that supports the roller pin, broke away.  I simly made a new one and silver soldered it back in place.  I replaced that frizzen with L & R's part, and keep the original in reserve, though it functions fine.
I have attempted to show in my pictures all the positions of the cock, and it is plain that all in that regard is fine.  The cock will hold anything from a 3/4" - 7/8" flint, and the lock sparks perfectly.  Ignition is simultaneous with trigger pull.
Perhaps you could post some pictures of the problem areas of your lock so we could make suggestions.  You're losing a lot of potential function and pleasure with all that hate.

[Dave K]

I have that very lock on my one guns as well. I was so frustrated with that lock after many attempts to make it right I sent it out. L.C. Rice is making these locks work along with other L&R locks. I am sure there are others, but I have had good luck with his work. As a matter of fact he has 2 of my L&R locks now to get tuned and working before they go into this SxS flinter. I never even bothered to put a flint in that lock. I don't need to learn any more bad words about this brand of locks, I just sent them in and left the frustration to him. Again, I have been very happy with the 5 locks he has done so far for me. It appears there are several things that are now a problem with this locks. One is the jig that aligns the drilling for the birndle to lock plate is wore out and this will be in a bind. So a new is fit. Another is the frizzen hardness is correctly heat treated. There apparently are many holes that are drilled crooked and many of the componets placed in a bind. I tried man tries to get these locks repaired by L&R. All that happened is UPS stock went up and the lock didn't get any better....ever from them. They even told me that 6-8 shots from a flint lock was "normal". After all this BS, the locks are working very well and I am very happy. Wish L.C. would get that one pair of locks done, they  are going on my new dove gun!

[G. Elsenbeck]

Hi guys.  First I'm more of a horner, not a full time gun builder (or even part-timer?).  Although I'm finally getting to my 'project' that has been in the closet far too long.  Anyway, are all the L&R locks this cantankerous?  No, I have a small siler on mine, thank you very much.  Why are they selling their products that require further 'tuning' by a competent smith in the first place?  Or is this a problem with this particular model flinter?  If I decide to build another 'project' should I leave alone L&Rs for the real gun builders on this forum and us 'newbies' stay away?  This isn't the first thread on this forum that has mentioned the frizzen too hard. 
Hopefully all this is just this or a couple of locks that somehow got pass final inspection before shipment.
Gary

[Frank]

Avoid L&R locks like the plague.

[J.D.]

Thanks for everyone's replies.

I thought about buying a gunmakers lock, but I'm too cheap for that...other than as a last resort. That may, however, be the best option.

Taylor,
The full cock position, on my lock, is in about the same position as the half cock on yours. A 3/4" flint will bash into the pan, in the full down position.

I would be a happy camper if this lock had the same positioning of the cock that yours does.  

G. Elsenbeck,

My experience with L&R is that they have great service. I once had a dead frizzen on a new L&R lock. A single phone call was enough to get a replacement that arrived before the old one was returned. The replacement was better than the original. However, I don't want a lock that needs that kind of excellence service on replacement parts.

That was over 15 years ago. The last L&R lock I bought was a Manton, last year. It was returned after a superficial inspection. IMHO, getting that particular lock to work properly was above and beyond my abilities.

IMHO, LC must be a superb, master lock maker, if he can make a silk purse out of the sow's ears that I have seen.

Thanks again, and God bless

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I've built a lot of guns and used a lot of L & R's locks.  There are some things about them that I would prefer they'd improve on, but I have nothing derogetory to say concerning the value.  L & R's problem, if one exists, is Jim Chambers' locks.  Still, L & R offers some styles that add wonderously to the options we look for.  For me, tuning a lock or a set of triggers is enjoyable, challenging and satisfying work.
Those who don't get that, should try making one from scratch.  First, it will give you some much needed education, and make tuning someone else's lock a lot more enjoyable.  After you've sawed and filed out all the parts and come up with a polish inside and out that you are prooud of, you'll likely agree that $125 is not a bad value.

[Birddog6]

J.D.  All it takes is a experienced lock builder,  or  for me 3 weeks of aggravation & $60. worth of new parts & allot of cussing. Then it will work. Don't bother to send it back to L&R, as the last time I sent one back they told me nothing was wrong with the lock & 8or9 shots from a flint was Normal Flint Usage     I now do anything I can to stay away from them....... 

Best alternative is to send it to LC or someone competent as he, or fit a Chambers gunmakers lock to it.  You can't go wrong with any if  Chambers locks, especially for a off-the-shelf lock. They are superb in my book.    ;)has

[J.D.]

Well, the frizzen is in the oven and my welder is backed up about a month. he took on a production job and has a deadline to meet, so it will be a while before the shoulder on the cock can be built up.

In searching the archives, I found a thread on antique lock repairs.

http://americanlongrifles.org/old_board/index.php?topic=3359.0

Dovetailing an insert into the tumbler, then cutting new notches might be the answer to the dilemma of the rotation of the cock. I can always order new parts if the repair doesn't work out.  Which begs the question of where Briddog gets his replacement parts that work on these locks?

Taylor,
A large part of my not wanting to buy a gunmakers lock, is for the learning experience of making this lock work. I think I know what it needs, and how to accomplish most of the work, but I'm not 100% sure how to work around the tumbler.

Aside from the insert, a friend has a lathe to turn a tumbler blank...if we can coordinate our schedules, then it's a template based on the locations of the notches of a Chambers tumbler, and files and sandpaper.

I suppose value is relative. My definition of value is getting one's moneys worth. If I were to spend the time, money, and effort to rebuild a new L&R Manton, for example, it would be a much better value to spend $200, or so and simply buy one of Bob Roller's excellent locks, without the extra headaches incurred by, essentially, building one from scratch.

Birddog6,
This lock is well out of any warranty that it might have had, so even if L&R would work on it, the warranty would probably have expired.

I may buy another L&R lock, in the future, but I will have to develop a whole new set of skills to fix 'em right before they are mounted on a stock.

Thanks again, and God bless

[T*O*F]

I mean I really hate this lock. The lock in question is a 20 year old L&R Early classic with the roller frizzen.

Applied Logic:
a.  Everyone purports that Chamber's locks are the best.
b.  LC builds locks for Chambers and is the go-to guy for tuning.
c.  LC used to own L&R and produced his own locks.
d.  Why would a "master" lockmaker sell $#@* under his own name.  One would think his locks would be superior to any other.
e.  It has been less than 20 years since L&R was sold.  Any locks made by L&R before the company was sold should be equal to or exceed a Chamber's lock.  Presumably, they stayed on with the new owners to teach them the business.
f.  Not all L&R OR Siler locks are assembled by their respective companies.  There are and have been in the past,  a number of vendors who buy kits and have them assembled by their own builders.  These locks are then sold thru their business as new locks, which they are.
g.  Many of these locks are sent back to the manufacturer (who didn't assemble them) for problems.  Factory locks are usually stamped with the assemblers initial and they can tell who built them, but they often try to make repairs for goodwill, even though they weren't factory assembled.  They could just blow you off instead.

If anyone has a lock that wasn't purchased factory direct, that person has no cause to denigrate their products.  I have never had a problem with any model of L&R lock purchased direct.

[Birddog6]

Well, You can analize it anyway ya want, it don't change their locks or their poor performance or they're failing reputation. 

[J.D.]

Well, I don't know who supplied the lock. It was on a rifle bought from a well known maker. The lock is marked L&R, and it may be only about 15 years old, maybe a bit less or a bit more. I don't keep track of time, or what was bought when.

IMHO, the issue isn't so much about poor construction as it is about poor design and  what appears to be a too hard frizzen.

I understand that L&R tried to make a faster, more efficient lock by reducing the rotation of the cock, in addition to attempting to direct sparks into the pan by designing the cock to stop the flint close to the pan.  The problem with this design is that flints have to be just the correct length, or the pan won't close at half cock. A slightly too long flint will also bash into the pan.

I buy flints at events, where I can see what I'm getting. Unfortunately the flints available at those events are pretty much square, so finding flints wide enough, as well as short enough is a real pain.

The back of the leather holding the flint is notched, but I gave up on notching the flints, themselves, since this gun goes through flints so quickly. IMHO, Notching flints is waaaayy too much trouble, so flints bought for this gun run small, but even 5/8" wide flints are sometimes too long.


I mention, again, a Manton lock bought a over  a year ago. The sear screw hole was about .010 larger in dia than the sear screw. The slop was so bad that the sear was canted to one side, just from tension of the sear spring, to the point that the nose of the sear did not make full contact with the full cock notch. There were other issues with this lock, but that was the most obvious, and potentially the most dangerous.  An oversize screw would have corrected that problem, but little on this lock was right.

I do know that a number of people do send current production L&R locks to LC to fix 'em right. I thought of sending the Manton to LC, but couldn't  justify the expense for a lock that should work, out of the box.

You must be exceptionally blessed to not have received a bad lock from L&R. The few I have bought, directly from L&R, have all had something wrong with them. Those issues, with all but the last were fairly easily corrected with replacement parts and/or heat treating.  

I'm not the only person less than satisfied, through personal experiences, with L&R locks. All of us  can't  be wrong.

God bless

[Dphariss]

I mean I really hate this lock. The lock in question is a 20 year old L&R Early classic with the roller frizzen.

Applied Logic:
a.  Everyone purports that Chamber's locks are the best.
b.  LC builds locks for Chambers and is the go-to guy for tuning.
c.  LC used to own L&R and produced his own locks.
d.  Why would a "master" lockmaker sell $#@* under his own name.  One would think his locks would be superior to any other.
e.  It has been less than 20 years since L&R was sold.  Any locks made by L&R before the company was sold should be equal to or exceed a Chamber's lock.  Presumably, they stayed on with the new owners to teach them the business.
f.  Not all L&R OR Siler locks are assembled by their respective companies.  There are and have been in the past,  a number of vendors who buy kits and have them assembled by their own builders.  These locks are then sold thru their business as new locks, which they are.
g.  Many of these locks are sent back to the manufacturer (who didn't assemble them) for problems.  Factory locks are usually stamped with the assemblers initial and they can tell who built them, but they often try to make repairs for goodwill, even though they weren't factory assembled.  They could just blow you off instead.

If anyone has a lock that wasn't purchased factory direct, that person has no cause to denigrate their products.  I have never had a problem with any model of L&R lock purchased direct.

If L&R is dumb enough to sell kits to the dealers who then do sloppy jobs of assembling them they get what they deserve in bad press.
Where on their web site are the kits listed?? I would love to buy kits rather than assembled locks I have to fix anyway.
I have a "Manton" stamped "L&R" and "E". It was an "assembled kit". The cock did not go down far enough, the stop on the cock was in the wrong place, the cock position at 1/2 cock was too close to the frizzen, the sear alignment with the rest of the lock was very poor.
Also this lock has far too wide a tumber and the tumbler  needs to me narrowed or on slim guns the internals may interfere with the tang screw,
After fixing, including re-arching the main and frizzen spring it its a decent lock. But if it was bought by a novice he would have problems and would likely need help making it work.
There is no excuse for the cock not going all the way down, or the 1/2 cock being too low other than
1. The consumers accept it.
2. The consumers will not pay for a quality lock and thus "get what they pay for".

I really wish someone would procure a GOOD small original Manton pistol lock with a safety from 1810-1820, and reproduce it. A rifle size lock would be nice too, TRS has them but I waited a year for the last set of parts and then made several internal parts. Paying 100-120 for GOOD castings for lock like this is not unacceptable.
But the later locks people insist on reproducing fall short.
The Manton L&R makes is really too long for a pistol being near perfect for a late longrifle with even a 1"+ breech.
Aside from Blackley's or TRS having a good lock for a late flint gun or a late English rifle/pistol/fowler is tough.
There isn't a good looking Bedford lock on the market either that I know of.
Dan

[Daryl]

Interesting- I've seen L&R locks badmouthed on various sites - however, although I've only had two, they've been incredible sparkers - a Bailes and a Dickert. The Dickert is the fastest firing flint lock I've ever witnessed.  It did break the feather spring and a new one came in 7 days - not bad. We'll soften it a bit before putting the lock back together - no big deal for a wonderful lock.

 Best flint life so far with the Dickert has been just over 200 shots. The average is about 90, not including the long-lived ones of which I've had several.

[northmn]

Since I shoot left handed and prefer some styles of locks I have used more than one L&R.  All have worked well.  I had to tune a Durs Egg once as the springs were too strong and it shattered an English flint in about 2-3 tries.  I got it going pretty good.  Too strong of springs is better than some I have seen too weak.  I had one that broke at the roller on the frizzen, but they seem to have fixed that problem.  I now have a Durs Egg and and the smaller Manton style that seem to be OK.  I tend to agree with Taylor that they are a good buy for the money.  For a earlier style I like the Siler, but wish they would make a small Siler Left Hand.  If I were to complain about any of the locks, they seem to make them too deep or too thick such that more wood is needed to be taken out for inletting.  I look at tuning locks somewhat like setting up a barrel blank in that the locks I buy are "lock blanks" .  My two English rainproof on my 54 and 12 gauge work very well.

DP

 

[jwh1947]

I build guns for guys who use them in Penn's Woods and have never had a customer complaint on a Chambers lock.  My favorite for speed is the small Siler, but all of them are eminently reliable, with little or no tuning.  I cannot say the same for some other brands. 

[Roger Fisher]

I have learned more about the innards of a flintlock than I ever cared to after I mounted my durs egg into a fowler abt 8 or 9 yrs ago.  Am on 3rd main spring, 2nd frizzen spring and 2nd lower bridle screw which snapped clean off.  I had to make a change regards the hammer screw that had only abt 2 or so threads holding in to the tumbler.  And this was with the hammer pressed fully 'on'!  I finally had the hammer fall off on top of a mountain after finishing a mt walk.  Noticed it missing at the 'bottom' of the mt and crawled back up the mountain back tracking my steps with my skinny nose on the ground and finally found it near where we fired the last shot!!   I ground and filed the hammer down at the screw area so I gained about 3 more threads and had decent purchase so it is fixed (I hope)  It hung together past weekend and shot well. In fact well enough that I won the trade gun agg at our Pa. state shoot.

All that said she is a great sparker and I get v few misfires.....  She has mucho play sideways on the frizzen axle and seems like that gives enough play to get more purchase on the flint edge on a misaligned flint...... so I'm living with the bitch even with all her faults.... Oh yes, did I say my latest fowler has a Chambers?

[J.D.]

It would appear that this thread has become a forum for bashing L&R locks. That was not my intent, though, unfortunately, I succumbed to the feeding frenzy, once it began.

My original intent, fed by extreme frustration over the locks performance after a days shooting, was to get advise to fix the issues surrounding this particular lock.

The frizzen has been tempered, and the welder contacted. The remaining question of options with the tumbler has not been addressed. Does anyone know of a production tumbler or casting that can be made to work without too much modification of, either the casting or the lock? Or, do I have to make a new tumbler from scratch?

Thanks and God bless

[Roger Fisher]

It would appear that this thread has become a forum for bashing L&R locks. That was not my intent, though, unfortunately, I succumbed to the feeding frenzy, once it began.

My original intent, fed by extreme frustration over the locks performance after a days shooting, was to get advise to fix the issues surrounding this particular lock.

The frizzen has been tempered, and the welder contacted. The remaining question of options with the tumbler has not been addressed. Does anyone know of a production tumbler or casting that can be made to work without too much modification of, either the casting or the lock? Or, do I have to make a new tumbler from scratch?

Thanks and God bless

WE search for the truth here and that is what occured when the L & R case was opened!  Unfortunate that the truth hurts L & R; but that is what this forum is all about.  In any business valid complaints improve the business since that may concern the company or companies to fix any valid faults that the complaints focus on!

[northmn]

One of the things I noticed on Taylor's pictures is that the flint is pointing about right at the front of the pan.  they should be pointing to the center or the front.  I have bent more than one cock so that they do this (heated cherry red).  Another thing to mentioned is a point Barbie made one time about locks returned to them.  Keep them clean and lubricated.  Mine work much better if the frizzen and the frizzen spring are lubed as wel as the shank of the tumbler.  as to failures mentioned with the locks, I can only say like Daryl taht mine have been excellent sparkers and worked well.  Tuning locks, reheating frizzens etc, to me is part of the game.

DP

[J.D.]

One of the things I noticed on Taylor's pictures is that the flint is pointing about right at the front of the pan.  they should be pointing to the center or the front.  I have bent more than one cock so that they do this (heated cherry red).  Another thing to mentioned is a point Barbie made one time about locks returned to them.  Keep them clean and lubricated.  Mine work much better if the frizzen and the frizzen spring are lubed as wel as the shank of the tumbler.  as to failures mentioned with the locks, I can only say like Daryl taht mine have been excellent sparkers and worked well.  Tuning locks, reheating frizzens etc, to me is part of the game.

DP

Yes, that is a part of the game. I have done some of the same things with other locks, including relocating the frizzen spring on a Chambers Late Ketland, but for some reason, haven't done anything to this one.

I'm not discounting L&R's contribution to gunbuilding, since they do offer styles of locks not offered by other makers. Nor am I ready to throw  the baby out with the bathwater, so to speak.

While I do like to work on locks, I don't have the knowledge base to do some of the work required to make some locks all that they can be.

Some of the corrections are pretty straight forward, some are not. I got the  straight forward part pretty well down...kinda, sorta...almost.  

It's the nuances of lock design and function that I have trouble with. After I get the cock welded, the tumbler corrected, and springs balanced, I plan to experiment with adding shims to the lower jaw to learn the result of increasing the throw a 1/32" or 1/16" at a time. The neck of the cock may need bending, at that point, but we'll see. The angle of the frizzen may change too. I may need a few replacement parts to get through the experimental phase of improving this lock.  

God bless

[rich pierce]

Before L&R started giving us choices in lock styles, there was nothing out there but Silers, the Lott trade gun lock and a couple others.  I was jumping for joy when the Durs Egg and the Ashmore and the Dickert came out from L&R, and they were churning out good "Hawken" percussion locks. They gave us a lot of choices and provided real competition, and we won.  It's relatively recently that Chambers had a wide line of choices, and Davis and others have done the same.  We're benefiting from a lot of hard work and entreprenurial efforts.   And there have been and always will be problems with individual flintlocks from each and every supplier.  The foundries will screw up and use the wrong steel or heat treat.  A new assembler will mess up.

Give the maker a chance to make it right and generally they will.

[Acer Saccharum]

Gentlemen, please keep away from bashing manufacturers.

I don't mind hearing about the problem and how you might get it fixed; that's educational, and in line with the purpose and intents of the ALR. Most of the lock problems stem from assembly and heat treatment. All manufacturers have problems at any given time. Some more than others. But please do not single out a Mfr and vent all your pent up frustration.

Tom

[Naphtali]

L.C. Rice has been identified as one L&R tuning expert. Are there others, preferably in Montana or northeastern Idaho? I have sets of L&R lock [parts] that I'm going to need assembled -- and that safety we've discussed, if possible. This is not something I'm going to need day after tomorrow. But the sooner I make decisions, the more comfortable I'll be knowing my projects will ultimately be completed.