silver mounted gun

[l.cutler]

Hi folks.  A guy on Treasurenet has been finding the metal parts of a silver mounted gun.  Here is a link to the buttplate, if you search his posts you will find the triggerguard and the sideplate as well as what is left of the barrel and lock.  Anyone ever seen one like this? http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/642753-solid-silver-butt-plate-flintlock-has-been-found-s-beautiful.html

[smart dog]

Hi,
Yes.  I own an English fowler with silver mounts by John King. The one shown is a nice example.

dave

[l.cutler]

It is amazing to me that that tiny finial on the front of the buttplate was intact!

[Hungry Horse]

I would saw not only amazing , but highly unlikely, as well. The entire buttplate is in pristine condition. I just find it hard to believe its been underground.

  Hungry Horse

[Tanselman]

If the first darker picture shows the "as found" butt plate, I wouldn't think it has nearly the black oxidation or build-up it should have for being under water and in mud for all those years. It looks like a moderate tarnish at best.  Shelby Gallien

[Elnathan]

Previous episodes:
Triggerguard (http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/641546-wow-just-found-beautiful-solid-silver-trigger-guard-1700s-flintlock.html) 
Wrist inlay (http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/641918-flintlock-site-gives-up-another-awesome-solid-silver-find.html).

Also the contents of the barrel: (http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/641483-interesting-update-1700s-flintlock-barrel-loaded.html)

He also found the sideplate, but I haven't managed to locate that thread yet.

I have no idea what silver should look like after it has been in a swamp for 250 years, but I do know that peat bogs in Europe can preserve certain materials in remarkable shape while destroying others, so I wouldn't rule out the idea that the chemistry of the surrounding soil could preserve silver remarkably well while destroying most of the rest of the gun. It doesn't appear likely to be a hoax to me, particularly since the wrist inlay is shown still attached to a piece of the stock with some of the inletting still visible.

[Bill Paton]

The stock wood preservation is interesting. Silver has remarkable antimicrobial properties that are used in a number of medical situations. I wonder if the silver leeching into the wrist helped preserve it. I also wonder if any wood was still attached to the butt plate. If the owner was still alive when the gun met the swamp, I’ll bet he was awfully unhappy to lose such a beauty.

Bill Paton

[l.cutler]

I metal detect and have found numerous silver coins.  They virtually always come out of the ground shiny.  I have always assumed it has something to do with the acidity of the soil.  Here is the sideplate. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/today-s-finds/641236-1700s-flintlock-silver-side-plate.html

[SC Keith]

While researching John King I ran across the posts referring to the gun I found metal detecting shallow water in a muddy environment. I joined to get info about the fowler which Elnathan and l. Cutler have linked to my posts on Treasurenet .  I have a few questions maybe you can help with. Thanks for helping a newby.
     
 1.  Can you ID the type of wood by the pic showing were the wrist escutcheon was? 2. Can you tell if the buck and ball I removed from barrel was intended for game or war? 3. Can you ID barrel maker  by the mark in the photo?


geometry math symbols
 




Here is the end point of butt plate .Its actually a sword.

[Shreckmeister]

What do you mean by Buttplate is a sword?  Can you post a few more pics of it?  I don't recognize the escutcheon.

[SC Keith]

Here are a few more I just took including an older pre-cleaning photo of hallmarks before I used electrolysis and polish on the buttplate. The hallmark date is for 1774.  I am most interested in identifying the type of wood and the purpose of the buck and ball as well as the barrel maker. Thanks again.

[Avlrc]

Awesome.  What a find.

[Elnathan]

Guys, I think that by "sword" he means that the end of the finial is undercut to hold it in the wood.

Hi Keith! Here are a couple threads on English fowling pieces by Smart Dog that will give you some background information on English fowling pieces, the most likely candidate for your find:

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=48841.0
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=48844.0
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=48847.0
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=48921.0

There are a lot of more knowledgeable folks than I here who can probably give you better answers to your questions, but I believe that the marks on the barrel are the remains of decoration and aren't going to tell us much about who or where it was made. If you have the breech (back end) of the barrel any stamps there may be more informative. How much of the barrel do you have, and is it round all the way or does it have an octagonal section?

It is difficult to say what the load was intended for - it could be for fighting, as buck and ball loads were widely used for such things. OTOH, it could have been used for deer or bear, including "jack-lighting" which took place at light using a torch or pan full of coals to mesmerize the deer before shooting it - a practice quite illegal today but practiced back in the 18th and 19th centuries.

I don't think anyone is likely to be able to tell the species of wood from your photo. If what you have is the remains of a fine European fowling piece, as seems most likely, (or possibly an officer's fusil/light musket) then it is most likely European Walnut. If it was stocked here with imported or re-used mounts then it might be any of a number of North American hardwood species.

Without necessarily giving specifics, could you tell us were you found it? The location might help narrow things down a bit.

[SC Keith]

Hello Elnathan I appreciate your reply.  The gun was found on private land with early map research showing an old causeway over a swampy terrain near a southern city that dates back 300 plus years. As far as the finial, I thought it resembled a sword since the sword type blade occurs on the side plate, and the escutcheon. The theme of all these pieces is the classic trophy of arms motif.
   My limited time to research since finding the piece also points to the fowler.  The barrel was octagonal to round and was in terrible condition. I sawed into it to successfully remove the load. The pics in the side plate link show rifle as found. I was lucky enough to salvage the flint.  I still have the lock plate getting ready to go back into the electrolysis.
      I am on a quest now to learn about fowlers so I can have a gun or replica built one day using the John King silver.
       I saw the links you provided which came up in my research into John King silversmith and british fowlers.
               Thanks again, 
                               Keith
         

[Daryl]

Buck and ball was a normal load in paper ctgs. to increase possible hits on then enemy.
In the States, the buck and ball ctgs. were used twice as often as single ball.  Straight 9 & 15 pellet buckshot loads
were issued for killing 'some forms' of game. Just what, I do not know, was not listed in the text of the book.

[backsplash75]

Great stuff! Agreed that the wood is likely walnut, but you can send a chunk for analysis:  https://www.fpl.fs.fed.us/research/centers/woodanatomy/wood_idfactsheet.php

The signature of the barrel maker is usually on the breech towards the lock, and the lock maker or gun maker's signature was on the lock by the pan or sometimes stamped inside if present.


I understand if you don't want to get specific, but can you confirm that this was found in South Carolina?

Generally buck and ball was an anti personnel round, but it may have been for deer. I noticed you recovered wadding, was that tow or spanish moss? What size is the shot?

abt. 2 dozn. fusee Guns proved Barrells @ 14/--very good at the price but rather larger Bows than those commonly used in the Indian Trade ;
they wou'd answer very well for a Bullet & Shot & believe wou'd suit the Southern Indians ; as I have been told they do not use a single Bullett so much as the Northern Indians"
Letters of Indians Goods at Rock Creek belonging to the Ohio Company. Taken from Letters to Washington.

"I hope your Excellency will likewise send Powder and Ball and some swan Shot, that if we should be attacked by the French we may serve them
 in their Kind as they always make use of Shot in their first Attacks in this Part of the World, which answers much better than Ball." R.
Demere to WH Lyttelton Oct. 28, 1756. (SCIA II, 233)

I therefore undertook to desire Mr. McGilvray to advance in the Creek Nation 50 Wt. Of Powder, 50 Wt. Of Swan Shot,
(which the Indians chuse as they cannot take such sure Aim at an Enemy as at a Deer) and 50 Wt. of Ball and a little Paint...
Wm. Bull to WH Lyttelton June 25, 1758 (SCIA II, 474)

[SC Keith]

Thank you Backsplash75 for providing the service to ID the wood. Im very interested to use the same type wood in a rebuild. I did not have calipers to measure caliber of shot so I used a ruler. When I sawed through a badly deteriorated section near breach I sawed a small portion off from the large lead ball, but when I get some proper calipers I think I still have enough for a proper diameter to measure.
     The black residue and water soaking the linen or moss was surely the gun powder, so I put the material in a vial to try and preserve it. I just don’t know if it is moss, linen or what material.  The whole barrel and breech area were so badly deteriorated that the mark shown was the only information which looked like a mark I saw on a period Joseph Heylin barrel.
    As I was cleaning and tapping a rusted conglomeration at the hammer area I found the original flint with rusted jaw iron still fused on it. I am searching for educational books  on 18th century British fowlers. Any tips welcomed.
       Best,
             Keith
 

[backsplash75]

thanks for the updates, nice to get data on the shot size. The stringiness of the wadding fibers and what I assume are SE USA/Carolina origins make me lean towards spanish moss wadding vs tow fibers, but that is a guesstimate.

[smart dog]

Hi,
Your gun is almost certainly an English fowler with English walnut stock.  The barrel section shows what looks like a hook for a standing breech and all of the silver inlays were fairly common designs found on high-end guns made during the mid 1700s.  The barrel decoration is a common design and within that looping shape should be the words "LONDON" and perhaps the name of the maker.  It could easily be Heylin but there are many other candidates as well.  The little hook on the tip of the butt plate slips under the wood and anchors the tip down.  The hook underneath engages the head of a screw or lug imbedded in the mortice to anchor it.  The crisp high quality engraving and cast decoration (which was also chiseled to achieve that precision) indicates an expensive gun for the time.  The stand of arms on the trigger guard, side plate, and butt plate could indicate the owner had a military connection.  I doubt the gun was an officer's fusil because silver dents and crushes more easily than brass or iron and would be a poor choice for a military piece.  However, the owner could have been an officer and this was his personal hunting gun, perhaps even used in some military conflict.  For books, Keith Neal and David Back's "Great British Gunmakers 1740-1790" and Norman Dixon's "Georgian Pistols" are the best references.  Dixon's book focuses on silver mounts and their production.

dave     

[SC Keith]

Smart Dog, I appreciate your reply with the interesting information. I will look to obtain the books you recommended and continue my quest to be become better informed on the flintlocks. You have a great website here which has been very helpful. I also will read again and study the English fowler pieces done by you that are linked on this thread in a post. Very helpful info.
       Best,
           Keith
       
       

[Tanselman]

The salvaged flint is interesting. It doesn't appear to be a high quality English flint as would be expected, but rather a more crude and heavily used flint, probably knapped over here by the gun's owner from local flint, based on the mixed coloration and lesser chipping quality. Shelby Gallien

[mr. no gold]

Just a question; have you continued to look for the rest of the furnishings? You might find the trigger guard and the thimble of which there should be three, at least. One is left wondering after all these years how such a fine piece came to be lost. While reading the book, "Of Sorts For Provincials" I noticed a fowler that bore some resemblance to the one you have found. It is shown starting on Page 89. Thank you for showing it here.
Dick

[SC Keith]

Tanselman thanks for the reply. The flint is interesting to me also. I have “eyeballed”  a very few over the years while relic hunting and they are thicker and better made as you said. After 30 years of relic hunting, this find has been the most interesting to me and I now look at these flintlocks as pieces of art- I think I am hooked!  I hope to fire one one day.  In the meantime, I will be on a learning curve for quite a while to get more informed about these guns.
  Mr. no gold, thank you also.  I have recovered 4 silver pieces so far and they are linked in this thread by Elnathan. They are in order; the side plate, trigger guard, escutcheon, and butt plate. I am going to meticulously look for the ramrod guides to this gun and very much hope to find them.  My dream for the parts would be to have a rebuild one day if I can locate the ramrod guides, but if I am unable to find them,  I would hope the members here might suggest a second best alternative.
             All 3 or 4 thimbles would be silver on a gun such as this right?
                  Thanks,
                        Keith 
 
                     
               

[smart dog]

Hi Keith,
Yes 3 thimbles and they all would be silver if the gun was full stocked.  If half stocked, the forward pipes might be iron.

dave

[SC Keith]

Smart Dog I appreciate your replies. I have enjoyed studying the wonderful fowlers you have made that I have run across in my internet research.
    Keith