Can lead be to soft !

[Tilefish]

I have been hunting with Hornady swaged round balls for the past couple years. And have taking several animals including Elk, Mule deer, and several whitetails. And have managed to recover all of them. That being said not one of the animals mentioned has had the ball pass through even at close range. My current loads range from 90 to 110 grains of 2f swiss and a .535prb. I think maybe the lead is to soft and mushrooming to quickly. Any thoughts on this.

Thanks.
Chad

[EC121]

Soft lead is what you want, but the higher the velocity less chance of a pass through.  The ball flattens out from impact.  Try 80-90grs. and see what it does.  If you want to shoot 110grs., you need slightly harder lead.

[J Henry]

  If it isn't broke   do not fix  it.

[Tilefish]

  If it isn't broke   do not fix  it.

Probably the best advice. Was just wondering if others had the same issue.

[flinchrocket]

You want the ball to flatten out and transfer more energy(knock down power) to the animal. It also makes a bigger wound channel. The fact that you retrieved all your animals proves that it works.

[Jeff Murray]

It would seem from your comments that your load is effective in harvesting targeted game.  A round exiting opposite the impact point may give you a better trail for tracking if needed, but exiting and whistling through the woods does not alter damage done internally.  Round balls travel at relatively slow velocities and don't produce the hydrostatic effect that modern bullets do.  They are very effective because they expand, create a large wound channel and expend all their energy in the process.  The only complete through shot I have experienced on large game was a double lung shot on an elk at around 20 to 25 yards.  Elk, deer, antelope and wild boar have all succumbed to single shots that did not shoot through.  Shot placement and range, aka stalking skills, are more important for a clean harvest than a through shot.  If you want more penetration, a long bullet with greater sectional density will give you that result.  Also if you go to a hard alloy you may lose accuracy and bullet expansion.  Sounds like you are doing OK?     

[Tilefish]

It would seem from your comments that your load is effective in harvesting targeted game.  A round exiting opposite the impact point may give you a better trail for tracking if needed, but exiting and whistling through the woods does not alter damage done internally.  Round balls travel at relatively slow velocities and don't produce the hydrostatic effect that modern bullets do.  They are very effective because they expand, create a large wound channel and expend all their energy in the process.  The only complete through shot I have experienced on large game was a double lung shot on an elk at around 20 to 25 yards.  Elk, deer, antelope and wild boar have all succumbed to single shots that did not shoot through.  Shot placement and range, aka stalking skills, are more important for a clean harvest than a through shot.  If you want more penetration, a long bullet with greater sectional density will give you that result.  Also if you go to a hard alloy you may lose accuracy and bullet expansion.  Sounds like you are doing OK?   

Thanks for the feed back and advice Jeff. I have always shot conicals in the past and always had pass through. Just wanted to make sure it was normal with round ball's not to get full pass through.

[45-110]

Last year I took a young bull with a 100 yd. neck prone shot from my .58 Hawken. He was facing me and the round ball was a pass through. He instantly expired.
kw

[bob in the woods]

If you want complete pass through, you can go to a larger bore. I've only ever recovered one ball when hunting deer or black bears with my 10 bore.

[Daryl]

Depends on the game and bore size, I would say. Hardened round balls (with tin or mercury) were used in Africa and India for shooting
dangerous game. The bullets of the day, mostly hollow based conical 'balls' needed to be dead soft to 'take' the rifling and for that reason,
conicals did not become particularly popular for shooting dangerous game until the advent of the breech loader where hardened conicals could
be used.
So- what does this all mean? - for NA game, a dead soft round ball, appropriate to the game size, is all that is needed.  With larger calibres
such and Bob's 10 bore (.77) or my buddy's rifle 11 bore at .75cal. having all the diameter necessary for the most grievous wounds, hardened or
soft balls can be used.
Yes, the hard ones will exit. My buddy had exits on every moose using his .75 with hardened balls until he dropped his load down to 120gr. 2F.
 With 150gr. and over(200gr.) he had exits from every hit, no matter the angle. He used hard lead (WW) as he didn't have any pure lead. It is
possible the 150gr. load (1,350fps) would not have exited if a pure lead ball was used.
I would suggest pure lead for .54's and .58's for game up to and including moose/elk. Just shoot them tight in behind the front leg and you are
good to go. Stay away from the large bones. Those will stop a pure lead ball, preventing it from entering the chest cavity, even from my .69, however
a WW ball smashes right on through.

[WadePatton]

  If it isn't broke   do not fix  it.

Probably the best advice. Was just wondering if others had the same issue.

I want the lead to stop under the hide on the off-side.  And is what my 54 does with soft lead and TN whitetails and a modest charge of 2f. 

Lead ball terminal ballistic performance is very difficult to understand by all of us who came up studying other types of projectiles and notions of "ideal".  I had to discard those notions to accept the true effectiveness of a lead balls on game. 

Faster is not always better, as has been pointed out already.  Passing through is only handy for shots that don't land well, and tracking ensues.  Shot placement is the absolute king of ballistic factors.

[Darkhorse]

When I started hunting with a muzzleloader back in the early 70's the old timers said if you can scratch a groove in lead with your fingernail then it's soft enough for hunting. Back then I cast all my projectiles out of dead soft lead, I recovered few balls but they killed faster than today's swaged balls.
Now I shoot swaged balls because they are readily available and simple  to use. I think the swaging process produces a more dense ball and gives me mostly all pass thru's but not as much expansion as the old pure lead cast bullets.
I shoot .54's for deer and my loads today are from 70 to 80 grains 3fg. I think a perfectly shot deer travels too far and often consider casting my own again from dead soft lead.
I hunt turkeys with a .40 caliber long rifle using .395 swaged balls and shoot them through the wing butt when possible. The bullet path is the same diameter all the way through the turkey, meaning to me, there is no expansion.

[Daryl]

What powder charge do you use on the turkeys Darkhorse?

[Panzerschwein]

If the lead just mashes all over the muzzle and drips off onto your shoes when seating the ball, then it’s too soft.

[Darkhorse]

60 grains 3fg Daryl.

[alacran]

I have shot six cow elk with muzzleloaders. Have used both Hornady's and balls I have cast. 5 were shot with  .54 cal rifles , one with a .58 cal rifle.  Range have been between 20 and 95 yards. Have recovered 2 of the 6 balls.One was 85 yards, quartering shot , the other at 20 yards. All others passed through.

[Tilefish]

I have shot six cow elk with muzzleloaders. Have used both Hornady's and balls I have cast. 5 were shot with  .54 cal rifles , one with a .58 cal rifle.  Range have been between 20 and 95 yards. Have recovered 2 of the 6 balls.One was 85 yards, quartering shot , the other at 20 yards. All others passed through.

Alacran if you don't mind me asking what powder charge are you using in your .54cal. I shot a small whitetail buck a few days ago less than 30yds. Recovered the ball on the other side under the skin. No bone was hit and the ball was mushroomed the size of a quarter. I am not complaining in any way about the lethality of the ball just would have figured at that range it would have penetrated all the way through.

[Daryl]

60 grains 3fg Daryl.

TKS - I would expect some expansion at that speed, however how much is indicated by the permanent wound channel.

[RVAH-7]

Good comments all around. In addition, step back and consider if you had been a longhunter or free trapper a LONG ways from the settlements or a supply of lead.  Use enough powder to slip in past a rib and into lungs or heart but maybe or hopefully able to recover the lead for re-casting and do it again.

[Bull Shannon]

  If it isn't broke   do not fix  it.

Probably the best advice. Was just wondering if others had the same issue.

I want the lead to stop under the hide on the off-side.  And is what my 54 does with soft lead and TN whitetails and a modest charge of 2f. 

Lead ball terminal ballistic performance is very difficult to understand by all of us who came up studying other types of projectiles and notions of "ideal".  I had to discard those notions to accept the true effectiveness of a lead balls on game. 

Faster is not always better, as has been pointed out already.  Passing through is only handy for shots that don't land well, and tracking ensues.  Shot placement is the absolute king of ballistic factors.

Just to add to the already given good advice; don't go add to or give up velocity if it is detrimental to accuracy. My .54 has a 1:48 twist and is wonderfully accurate using between 75 to 85 grains of 2F which shows how forgiving this ROT is.  Slower twist barrels may not have more than a 5 grain difference between great and mediocre accuracy but may have a low and high powder charge that you can use confidently. You might get the same accuracy using 60 grains as you do using 110 grains, which is why it's good to put in some range time and see for yourself. Soft lead is the way to go, as pure as you can get.  Buying a few pounds from places like Roto-metals if you cast your own will ensure that your lead supply is pure and soft.

[alacran]

Alacran if you don't mind me asking what powder charge are you using in your .54cal. I shot a small whitetail buck a few days ago less than 30yds. Recovered the ball on the other side under the skin. No bone was hit and the ball was mushroomed the size of a quarter. I am not complaining in any way about the lethality of the ball just would have figured at that range it would have penetrated all the way through.
[/quote]
In my Bucks Co. flint rifle I use a .530 ball with 95 grains of Goex2f. I n my .54 Hawken I use 100 grains Goex 2f under a .530 ball. The ball I recovered on the elk at 20 yards was deflected by brush and ended above the shoulder in the base of the neck and hit the spine.

[smylee grouch]

Different strokes for different folks I guess. My slow twist barrels seem to be a little more forgiving if I over or under charge by a small amount but my 48 twist barrels are more set in their ways so to speak. The 48 twist barrels do shoot good but with close attention to the accuracy loads that I worked up.

[Daryl]

Different strokes for different folks I guess. My slow twist barrels seem to be a little more forgiving if I over or under charge by a small amount but my 48 twist barrels are more set in their ways so to speak. The 48 twist barrels do shoot good but with close attention to the accuracy loads that I worked up.

That is how I've found the fast (48") twists, Smylee Grouch, compared to the slower twists.  The slower twists have seemed to give the best accuracy with heavier loads, however, they seem to shoot well with a wider variety of loads, than-do the 48" twists. I've only experimented with up to .58 in 48" twists in which 85gr./ 2F was best in one gun and 110gr. 2F best in the SxS rifle.
Taylor's 16 bore with 48" twist does well with 85gr. 2F & seem to shot well at 50yards too, with only 60gr. 2F. That might have been due to the large size of the ball being more forgiving, rather than the rate of twist, however.
My .69's best accuracy is not changed, from 125gr. through to 200gr. 2F in it's 66" twist, in which "ratio" is about like a 48" twist in a .50 or .54.

[smylee grouch]

Daryl, my current build ( 66 cal.-85 twist ) will I hope shoot ok with 2&1/2 drams of 1&1/2 Swiss for 50 + or - yd. gong shots but I also hope it shines with a 4 dram load out to 150 yds. Time will tell and I hope to have it in shooting shape by spring Bear season if the border is open.

[Daryl]

Sounds good.  A 3 dram load, like Taylor regularly used in his 48" twist Lang 16 bore, really works well as that charge does in my .69 for gong shooting.
We use GOEX 2F.
150gr. Swiss should give you a point blank range of 135yards. 140gr. Swiss does this in Dphar's 16 bore flinter.
I don't know for sure which powder granulation he uses, likely 1 1/2FG. Seems to me, iirc, his vel. was 1,740fps in his 85" twist barrel.
That is the barrel I've thought of re-barreling my .69 with.  Just for a whim, of course. I already have the mould & I use it in the .69, with a .034" patch.
A 9 1/2 pound rifle handles 85gr. 2F on a regular diet for trail walks, at least mine does, with any of the 3 size moulds I use in it.