Pecatonica Long Rifle Supply Kits

[Scota4570]

If your goal is to take your time and do it right, buy a plank.  Plan it out. Get the best lock you can find.  Buy small parts, but better to make as many as you can.    Make detailed drawings.  Build it in your imagination a couple of times.  Then proceed in a focused methodical manner. 

Most of the pre-carves I have used had frustrating problems to overcome.  I avoid them now. 

[Jim Kibler]

Okay...  This subject can be frustrating to me.  Many think that the product we make is the same as others, but more complete.  At least that is the implication conveyed from many comments I read on here and other forums.  This usually goes with the perspective that you will learn more from less complete rifle kit offerings.   First of all what we offer is FAR more than just a more complete version of what companies offer!  As I mentioned, if you care about historical correctness, great design / aesthetics or a kit not riddled with problems and mistakes you might want to reconsider offerings from others.  If these things aren't appreciated or cared about, there are many choices. 

My background is of course making high-end custom rifles, some of which have sold for five figures.  I understand what quality is.  The quality that goes into our kits is every bit that which goes into a high end custom rifle.  I can't do any better making a custom rifle one at a time by hand.  These have all the quality of a high-end custom rifle.  This is not true with offerings from most any other company

Also, you would be shocked at the number of kits that were purchased and then put in the closet when people realized what was required to complete.  This isn't just due to how far they were completed, but also due to mistakes that are par for the course with other manufactures. 

My mind is blown when I see people purchasing product from certain companies where the quality is absolutely terrible!  For example I can't believe certain lock companies can stay in business.  But I guess enough people don't understand what quality is. 

Look at the lock that Smart Dog just posted about.  From my perspective the quality of this is awful, yet the vast majority would probably think it's just fine.  Don't really know what more to say about this subject.  Frustrating...

Mr. Kibler, i do not think anyone is down playing the quality of your kits or your commitment to your level or quality or your experience in the world of muzzloaders.  they are definitely of high quality but that does not mean they are for everyone.  i have owned a few and really liked them but they did not fit me so i sold them.  i do not have your knowledge about flintlock rifles nor many other folks on here that build high end rifles but i have owned more than my fair share of high end rifles by many of the top notch builders on here.  to me reliability, fit and accuracy are my necessities in a rifle while others may want historical importance.  i am not a historian and do not claim to be one but i am a shooter and i love to shoot black powder flintlocks.  also we need more blood in our sport so why not welcome all people who want to shoot your kits, factory rifles or whatever there choosing is?? 

your coming across as that if nothing else offered is of good quality to make a quality rifle and i completely disagree. i would not drop 5 figures on a rifle but i have owned some that originally sold for that.  i do not personally know what it takes to build a 5 figure rifle as i do not have that kind of skill but i started shooting flintlocks with a builder that his rifles basically started a 5 figures and his talent is incredible. i just never saw myself owning one as i could not justify me spending that much on one.  anyhow my whole point is there are plenty of ways to skin a cat and if someone chooses to build another kit that may or may not have issues then so be it, we should be happy to have more folks wanting to get into this sport!

Here is what this boils down to....  Your definition of quality relative to mine.   Mine is certainly different than other suppliers / parts manufacturers and definetly beyond what many consumers appreciate.   Again, understand my background as a respected custom builder.   Not someone who makes guns and sells them for a couple grand.   This is the standard I base my judgements on.

Our business is booming, but it frustrates me when others don't appreciate the difference in what we offer. 

I'll just keep pushing for better and better quality while offering more products.  Eventually most will catch on.

Jim

[Dave Marsh]

I think Kibler needs a " time out", to get his ego in check.  I think he is frustrated and forgetting about the persons who helped him along the way, to success.  He is starting to sound like a person who is overwhelmed and over extended.  I could be wrong in my thinking.  I wish him well.

Wow.  Unbelievable.   I think Jim is a fine example of American ingenuity, hard work, an industrious entrepreneur and an honest good family man.  Keep up the good work Jim and get that @!*% NE Fowler Kit out there.  I am waiting.   

Dave

[Jim Kibler]

I think Kibler needs a " time out", to get his ego in check.  I think he is frustrated and forgetting about the persons who helped him along the way, to success.  He is starting to sound like a person who is overwhelmed and over extended.  I could be wrong in my thinking.  I wish him well.

We are doing fantastically well as a company as am I.   I'm sorry if I offend some, but I am just speaking the truth.   People don't always like to hear that, though.  I can back up the claims I make.  It may come across as "ego" but In all honesty there is a large gap between us and other suppliers.  I get frustrated when people don't understand this.  Perhaps this is my shortcoming...  I try to explain but in reality, there isn't a good way to explain without offending people.  My guide is whether it is true or not.  If it is true, I'm not afraid to say it.  Let the chips fall.   

Jim

[canadianml1]

Jim:

You have undoubtedly invested plenty of hard work and money  to get to where you are and your products are superior. You are entitled to "blow your own horn". I too am waiting for that new fowler and will order one when it is available. 

[Scota4570]

I just had to move a bridle screw hole in one of the locks Jim alluded to.  This is the kind of one step back and two steps forward that irritates me.  The tumbler was running very cockeyed.  The gap between the tumbler and the plate was sufficient to allow the fly to fall out. The parts were as cast and nothing was finished or reamed.  Only the sear notches were finished at all.  I can see no evidence of any attempt to jig for drilling or threading the holes.  The bridle screw hole in the bridle and plate was at least 10* off plumb. 

I'd gladly pay $100 more for a lock that is ready to go.  Hopefully in the future more quality locks will be offered. 

[Not English]

Hey All, my 2 cents again. As I previously mentioned I do have second hand experience with Pecatonica's inletting,  a number of students sent their swamped barrels and stock blanks to Pecatonica withed the dimensions of where they wanted them. The blanks came back with the barrel inlet perfectly. From there it was exactly as you would build a gun with all the flexibility that is given by a blank. If you have a need to turn out rifles/guns in a hurry,  a kit is the way to go, but everything is determined by someone else's esthetics. If you  do not have gun building experience, or a class,  or mentor is not available, a quality kit such as Chambers and Kiblers is the way to  go. As with all kits, you are at the mercy of the manufacturer, good or bad. My personal feeling at this point is that Kibler is feeling picked upon, which is not warranted. He makes good kit, but it still is a kit.

Dave

[Daryl]

OK - that's barrels, what about inletting locks?
Well done all over, or gaps, or excess wood removed?

[GANGGREEN]

They just did two pistols for me with lock inletting.  I initially ordered without the locks being inlet, but when they called to double check, I inquired about the price and because it was reasonable and I'm hoping to build the pistols quickly (Christmas gifts for my sons), I had them inlet for the locks as well.  They were well done and in the right location, but slightly undersized.  I'm to the point where I probably would have preferred that they not be inlet and I wish now that I hadn't asked them to do so, but I'd say for a relative beginner that the work was done fairly well and might save some people some time.

OK - that's barrels, what about inletting locks?
Well done all over, or gaps, or excess wood removed?

[alex e.]

If you laid a Kibler kit, and anyone else's.  I'd take Jim's time after time. For quality,ease of assembly and good architecture  they can't be beat.
I've built enough  TOW set to learn that its easier for me to build from  a blank, with less headaches.

I have seen enough slab sided parts put on display here and others sites  to make me shake  my head al too often. Thinking they've all done a great job.  Caring less about they're guns finer features. That's what Kibler offers..
 I'm at the point where I don't even care to post about it in a civilized manner.

As a friend of mine says " you can lead them to water, but you can't drown them"

[Not English]

Daryl,

I can't speak to anything else that Pecatonica does. We were only interested in getting the barrels inletted. The class was started By Bruce Lepage and I took over when he moved north. The point of the class was building a custom Long Rifle. The only one making GOOD kits at the time was Chambers. Bruce was willing to consider using a Chambers kit but still preferred to start from a blank. There were too many constraints and mistakes to deal with the other kits. Straight barrels were inlet in the class as we had a milling machine available with cutters of the proper sizes for the common straight barrel sizes.

The only other thing to add was that Pecatonica was only 1.5 hrs, southeast of our location. Most of the guys just drove down there and dropped the  barrel and blank off and picked them up when done. Usually they had already built a rifle with a straight barrel and thus were not complete novices.

This is a pretty lengthy response to your question, but you should probably read between the lines.

Dave

[Joe Stein]

Here is a little something for those who think that Jim Kibler's kits all look too similar:
https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=50308.msg499130#msg499130
Scroll to the top.

[flehto]

Have built 3 Chambers' and one Pecatonica Hawken parts sets and all 4 were made into quality MLers and learned a few things while doing so even though none of these parts sets were beginning projects.  After reading the particulars on Kibler kits, don't think I'd have learned anything.

I think that Kibler kits  have a place in the scheme of things and if a person just  wants a MLer and is not interested in learning the craft, Kibler kits are what one should buy.

Jim Kibler is proud of his offerings and it's well that he should, but I don't think he should be "hawking his wares" on these posts.....none of the other suppliers do this and neither should he. .....Fred

 

[Dennis Glazener]

I think this thread has run its course and am locking it.
Dennis