Any Southern Fowlers out there?

[LynnC]

Forgive me if I've asked this in the last year or two but there are so many new knowledgeable members.

I have Grinslades Fowler book and a truly great book it is, but I was disappointed that not a single fowler was included south of perhaps Maryland

He just stated that none were available or non existant

When I inquired before, past answers were that southern fowlers were in one of these categories:

1) imported English fowlers of varying grades
2) imported trade guns
3) if any southern fowlers were made, they were used up between the Revolution and the Civil War - no survivors

I just can't believe that no flint fowlers were made in the Carolinas of Georgia or Tenn. and that none survive today.

So I hope to get some new answers this go round...................Thanks

[G-Man]

Lynn - Mark Elliot has a great Simon Lauck (Winchester Va.) fowler - maybe 1790s-1805 era, on his website under "Antique guns" - it sounds like you are looking for earlier examples, but this still has a relatively early feel.

http://www.valongrifles.com/

[LynnC]

Thanks Guy

I remember seeing that one now and yes a very nice fowler.  Thanks for the reminder.  Certainly not too late a gun.  I really don't think that I'll be finding a pre Rev War fowler down south.  Much of the south was settled late 18th century/early nineteenth.  I feel that guns from Virginia, Kentucky were probably influenced by Penn and the New England states.  My theory is that the farther southern states of the Carolinas & Tenn may have had a different influence.  Perhaps just as fine in the eastern states or a simpler in form more westerly.  Who can say?  I'm just hoping for some guns to turn up that might proove or disproove this thought.   Surely a few southern flint fowlers were made and survive.

With all the new members that have southern interests, I am hopeful that they have seen something................................Lynn

[Mike Brooks]

There is a fowler by the same hand that built the "Faber" rifle. Looks almost identical except for a fowler styled trigger guard, no cheek piece and no patch box.
I'm pretty convinced the need for fowlers in the South was  mainly satisfied by imports from england.

[T*O*F]

I just can't believe that no flint fowlers were made in the Carolinas of Georgia or Tenn. and that none survive today.

Hey, they are all over the place.  I'd be willing to wager that there are at least 50 people on this board who own a Jackie Brown "Carolina Smoothbore." 

[Salkehatchie]

Lynn:

I agree with Mike on all accounts above.

If you read my posts you will get some background on this topic.  These ancestors of mine were money engravers, Scottish trained gunsmiths, "Indian Traders to the Cherokee in GA", and militia captains.  1690 to 1770's.  Myzack had shipping interests all over.  Scotland, England, Ireland, Holland, Germany.  Could buy and sell anything.  They also had homes and shops in Charleston, SC in the "iron monger" area/district of Charleston.

I have James Myzack's will dated 1725 and John Ballentine's will dated 1764; in Charleston, SC and it lists: swan shot, cutlasses, silver hilted small sword, powder flasks, shot pouches, cartouche boxes, clasp knives, "2 guns", "cuteau", sword....and the list goes on and on.

Other than the silver hilted small sword, no real qualitative descriptions.  Darn!

No listing of guns as if one "manufactured" them.  I do not doubt for a minute that they imported them.  

Now either Massey or Ballentine bought out a Clinton fellow from Barbadoes who was an English trained gunsmith, "around"...1720.  No particulars on the inventory/estate purchase though.  Strike out there as well.

And I have asked numerous times of my cousins in SC to keep a lookout for any guns.  So far, no luck.


Thanks;
Salkehatchie

[flintriflesmith]

I do not recall ever seeing photographs of it, but John Bivins often spoke of a fine Charleston make double fowler. I remember he said it was top quality and even had gold lined pans.
John was a careful researcher and I believe his opinion that this fowler was Charleston made and not an English import marked for a Charleston retailer.
Hope that jogs someones memory who has more details.
Gary

[LynnC]

Thanks Mike - Where can a photo of the Faber Fowler be found?

OK TOF 

Salkehatchie - I have read some of your family research posts.  I fully agree that there were wealthy merchants in the Eastern seabouard cities importing fine arms for sale in the colonies or the new nation.  You are stearing me to modify my request.  I'll comment below.

Gary, that sounds like a nice flint double - thanks

Modifying my question.
Knowing the frugalness of the southern people, no useable gun parts were ever discarded, especially gun barrels.  They must have been recycled into restocked shooters.  Lots of southen gunsmiths were turning out rifles, why not fowlers?

So, maybe the fowlers I'm looking for are a plainer working mans gun from the then western frontier.

And perhaps they are all used up............

Still hoping to hear from a few more members before I give up.....................Lynn

[Jim Chambers]

Gary's post reminded me.  I had the Charleston double gun in my shop several years ago for some minor restoration.  It was every bit the quality piece one would expect of a fine London made double, but was signed "Charleston" and the Charleston gunmaker's name.  Sorry I don't remember the name.  I believe the owner at that time is no longer with us, and I presume the gun is now owned by the son or family.  It was a privilege and honor to work on such a fine piece and have a chance to study it.

[mr. no gold]

A number of years ago while at the Las Vegas Winter Show, I noticed a long barreled (49 inchs) smooth gun with a rakish profile lying on a table. Fortunately, I had read Bivin's book on the Carolina Rifle not long before, and his statement that he had never seen a smooth gun/fowler in his examinations of Carolina made guns was still with me. Well, that was exactly what I was looking at. The owner and I struck a deal and I went home with the gun.
I did have the opportunity to show it to Ray McKnight while at the show and he was quite excited over it and agreed with my assessment that it is the 'hen's tooth'. He further commented that this was the kind of gun that Andy Jackson's men from the area would have carried to New Orleans, in his opinion. !Ojala!
The gun is long and slender (buggy whip architecture?) with about a .60 caliber bore; it is half round and has the initials  'f. B.'  on the top flat. The stock is of a good maple with some stripe; there is no patchbox. It has a cheek rest, however and some inlays; there is some rather simple engraving on the metal parts, brass, silver and iron.
It was originally a flintlock, but is now in percussion.
Guess that all that needs to be done now is to get some photos of it to post here for viewing and comments. It's a neat gun which has had lots of wear and is still dirty. I have left it that way and have no regrets. Someday, it may have to go back to flint though, but no hurry on that.
Film at eleven.
Dick

[Mike Brooks]

Thanks Mike - Where can a photo of the Faber Fowler be found?

It was in a Muzzle Blasts magazine in the 80's.

[woodsrunner]

If James Levy doesn't see this Post and comment, I'll call him tomorrow and get him to look at this. He may know of something that has turned up in Florida.That's his business.

I have a fair amount of stuff, probated wills, militia records, etc on my ancestors, 100% Carolina Backcountry Scott-Irish, Highland Scott and English roguish types, and while I know that a couple of the wills inventoried "guns", no descriptions were given. An ancestor in the Carolina Militia during the F&I War was issued a Trade Gun, so aparently  had no firearm when deployed to northwestern SC.

Read the book "Deerskins and Duffels" and you'll see countless references to trading with the Creek Indians for deer hides from the late 1600's to about the RevWar Period. Carolina Trade Guns aparently were the ones most often funneled to the Indian Trade since it was unlawful to trade rifles to the Creeks.

I do have one caplock that is a mixmaster of cheap parts stuck togather, a real "Bubba" job, that turned up in our search for Gillespie rifles around my home in the Georgia Mountains. The barrel is octagan to round with a wedding band and possibly dates to the 18th century, but I'm not about to suggest that it's an original Southern Fowler.

[Collector]

Dick,  Can't wait to see photographs of your piece! 

[LynnC]

Thanks Jim C - Good to know that top quality guns were msde thst fsr south - maybe a picture will surface.

[LynnC]

Sorry about the spelling - Big fingers, Tiny blackberry

[LynnC]

Dick, Now that sounds like a really interesting gun!

Love to see some pictures.

[LynnC]

Woodsrunner - seems as if those light slim Carolina trade guns like Mike Brooks makes were popular.

That percussion fowler of yours sounds like that frugal southern recycling

[Sean]

Lynn,

Did you look at this thread?:

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=6026.0

Not recycled, but its an example of something that was probably 1 step up and 1 step down the line from Brook's Carolina gun.  These guns appear to have been fairly common.  I just visited a collection that had several similar guns, including some that were likely period restocks done in what appears to be curly maple.  There are also a couple of guns in Shumway's Longrifle Articles II that he attributed as Southern.  They could be from anywhere, but the one on page 116 has a round barrel stamped RW for one of the Wilson's of London.  Shumway put it in the 1780-90 period.

Sean

[LynnC]

Sean,
Yes, I did see that - what a beautiful fowler, But it is likely an English import.

I'm looking for those made here even if from import or domestic parts.

I'm in search of the Southern American Fowler

[JTR]

Lazy old Mr no gold asked me to post these pictures for him.

[LynnC]

Thank you Mr JTR

Now I gotta get to a real computer to see the pics (on a BlkBerry now)

[mr. no gold]

Well, Gaylord, Lynn and Others-Here the old thing is. I think that I mispoke on the caliber. It is closer to .69, or so. Thus far, I haven't seen another like it in real time or in books.
The 'f. B.' initials and surrounding engraving on the top barrel flat are too faint to show up in the photos. Although somewhat unsophisticated, they are nice nonetheless.
The gun was used a long time and must have been carried on horseback (across the pommel of the saddle) as the forearm is worn completely away. The owner nailed strips of brass over the ramrod channel to keep it closed in.
The percussion lock appears to be a nice English piece, but is a bit overlarge for the rifle. It most likely had a dainty Ketland type flintlock originally.
If anyone would like to have more information, just ask! Hope that you enjoy it.
Dick   

[LynnC]

That is one neat slim trim fowler - A lot of NC influence almost Tenn looking.  Keys and a thumb piece - Not a po boy!

Very much like a smooth rifle or like a Kentucky fowler in Grinslade's book.  Anyway it has rifle archetechture.

So this indicates that at least one gunsmith was making a southern version of the "Kentucky" fowler.  Man I wish a few more would turn up so we could get a few basic southern charicteristics!

Thanks So Much for posting these pics..................................Lynn

[LynnC]

Has T Dennis never seen a smoothbore by the Gillespie gunmakers?

What about Mr Briggs, Have you by chance seen any southern smoothbores?

Others?

I appreciate your input............................Lynn

[Collector]

Dick, Love those loooong barrels and talk about 'trim'!  Tang reminds me of a signed Samuel Lafayette-Click TN piece I used to own.