Identifying an "Eister" Rifle

[howal]

I'm a newbie to this forum, and am looking for some help. My father had some antique firearms and now I own his flintlock rifle that he bought in 1960. He thought it was an "Eister" type rifle, and I'd like to learn more about it. There are no identifying marks on it that I have found (no barrel proof marks, no names on the lockplate, etc.). I believe it's 0.50" caliber, with a 40" barrel. It seems to be in great shape. I've uploaded some pictures, and hope they're of good enough quality. If any more photos are needed, please let me know.

I'm not expecting to learn that it was actually made by George Eister, but I'd be thrilled to get and idea of who may have made it, where and when.
 

[mr. no gold]

Haven't seen too many Eister rifles in my travels, but without a barrel signature, carving, and engraving, it is hard to impute this gun to his hand. Also, he used far more screws to hold the patch box than are present on this gun. Granted the box designs are quite similar, but this design was used in New York, too. The architecture/profile is not strictly in conformance with the York style. It appears that the wrist is checkered and there are no Eister rifles with that feature. Some York builders did checker the wrist in later days, one of the Welshans comes to mind. You have a very fine rifle that was perhaps a restocked Eister or it is a New York State gun. I lean toward the latter. Thank you for allowing us to have a look at it. We all hope that our next gun is as nice as this one is. There is an Eister rifle in the ALR library come to think of it; you might check in there for a comparison.
Dick

[WESTbury]

There is a rifle on page 104 of Whisker's book Behold the Longrifle by John Moore of Albany NY having a very similar patchbox and wrist checkering.

In the New York Exhibits of the Miller Library on this forum, there is a J.P. Moore rifle with many photos see the one below. Different butt stock profile though but the patchbox is very similar.

[Buck]

Howall,

That’s not an Eister. There would be at least 10 screws in that patch box if it was an Eister.

Buck

[howal]

Many thanks to the three repliers above.

I gather that

1) my gun is unlikely to have been made either by George Eister himself, or even by someone of his "school". If so, that's fine with me.
2) it looks more similar to John Moore's style, out of New York City. Well, I had hoped it was at least made in Appalachia somewhere! Would I be correct in thinking it was made around 1830?

I've learned that there's a book by "Kindig" that I could chase down to learn more. I wonder if he features John Moore's rifles.

BTW, I have also learned that my Dad bought this gun from Robert Abel's shop in NYC in 1960 for $275, and that's probably where he was told it was an "Eister" style.

I've attached a couple of new photos which I hope will show it better.

[vanu]

This just sold today:

https://auctions.morphyauctions.com/LotDetail.aspx?inventoryid=496105

I think you will see why it was attributed to George Eister if you compare the patchbox to yours.

Bruce

[Shreckmeister]

I think there is a good likelyhood that your rifle is a Pennsylvania product.  The condition is wonderful.

[vanu]

Shreckmeister, I think you're correct regarding a Pennsylvania origin, and it is a very nice conditioned rifle - you just don't see them like this much anymore, nice family history as well howal - definitely get a copy of Joe Kindig's book probably the best foundation source for those interested in Kentucky longrifles.

[Buck]

Howal,

It is a nice looking rifle - thanks for sharing the photos.

Buck

[WESTbury]

Howal--In any event, it is an outstanding rifle. Your Dad had a good eye for quality.

[johngross]

BTW, I have also learned that my Dad bought this gun from Robert Abel's shop in NYC in 1960 for $275, and that's probably where he was told it was an "Eister" style.

Robert Abels issued many catalogs over the years. Perhaps your rifle was listed in one of them? Cornell Publications sells reprints of some of his catalogs. They advertise Catalog Number 29 as being from 1960.

https://www.cornellpubs.com/searchResults.php

https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/item_desc.php?item_id=2394

[howal]

Well I think I'm beginning to get the picture! Identifying these old rifles is a bit like reading tea leaves.

I can certainly see similarities to the John Moore style of New York, as WESTbury suggested, but I read that Moore started in 1823. Might that have been a little late for flint? Perhaps mine is a very late flintlock.

The Morphy gun that just sold is described as being "attributed to" George Eister (thanks for the link, vanu). Who makes that attribution? I can see that mine has similarities to it, although with far fewer screws (as per Buck's comment).

I know very little about these guns, but wonder if it's too easy to focus identification on the patch box, since the style of "my" patch box seems to be pretty common. Are there other important characteristics that I should be looking at? For example I notice my butt doesn't drop as much as others do (lol), and wonder if that's common to certain gunmakers.

Thanks to johngross for the Abel link. Those catalogues must be great fun to read. I might put it on my Christmas list. I might have a better chance with it than with Kindig's book, which I see for about $100 on ebay.

[mr. no gold]

Sounds like you need a good library of books. Rather than old catalogs get a copy of Kindig's, "Thoughts...," Jim Whisker's many books on guns and gun makers, Dave Hansen's book on the finest of the fine rifles, and it goes on from there. Several members here sell good KY Rifle books from time to time and you might watch the 'For Sale' section. Without this knowledge you will continue 'reading tea leaves.' Just some advice from an old collector.
Dick

[Buck]

Vanu,

My thoughts are that the attributed rifle in Morphys is a restock. I’m not an Eister expert but I’ve handled 3 pretty extensively and the architecture doesn’t have the flow of the 3 I’ve seen. There aren’t many around so I could be wrong. Just my humble opinion.

Buck

[vanu]

Buck, Possibly, but that was owned by two friends at different times so i had lots of opportunities to check it out; and nothing really stood out as a restock, but as you all know unless the barrel is removed and some of the furniture its hard to be 100% positive.

Bruce

[Buck]

Vanu,

Respectfully, the comb is too high and the wrist is too short. The architecture of that rifle in its present form is later than 1810. Eister took up farming full time in 1802, much earlier than that rifles production. Unfortunately the Morphy historical write up is only a small portion of the history and does not quote the entire account Kindig provided.

Buck

[howal]

Well I've learned a lot about my gun pictured at the start of this thread!

- The patchbox is apparently typical of the "New York Style" (ref. "Growing Dominance: The Rise of New York State Gunmakers 1825-1875", H. J. Swinney,  American Society of Arms Collectors Bulletin 74:34-43)
-  in the early 1830's, full stocks and long patchboxes went out of fashion, so mine is probably from before that period
- unmarked locks from Birmingham were cheaper than U.S. made locks
- John P Moore worked out of NYC and was known for percussion pieces. I don't think that mine was converted back to flint, but may be wrong.

The detective work is great fun! Thanks to Westbury for pointing in the direction of New York.

Of course, I welcome any corrections or comments

[Ky-Flinter]

Hi Howal,

Welcome to ALR.  I agree with the suggestion to get a copy of Joe Kindig, Jr.'s "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in Its Golden Age" but I would further suggest that you get the latest edition, the 3rd.  This edition has much new information added and a section of color pictures that includes an attributed G. Eister.   There are no John Moore guns in Kindig's book.

-Ron

[howal]

Thanks Ky-Flinter, I'll try and find Kindig's book, maybe second-hand.

When I see these old books and articles, written by guys over fifty years ago, I imagine them scribbling by hand in the middle of their gunroom. I can't imagine how they developed all the knowledge and did all the work, without the internet. It sure is impressive!

[Joey R]

May I suggest a PM to J Talbert here on this forum for his insight on this subject.

[Tanselman]

This rifle appears very much to be a New York rifle, which I am sure it is. Note the single trigger with checkered wrist on a rifle with a New York box, the "dimpled" tear drops behind side facings, etc. Very much a New York style gun. It has had some restoration and has been cleaned, and it appears the box now has brass instead of iron screws. But overall, a very clean, nice looking rifle. We can't tell if the lock is original without a good, straight-on photo of the lock so we can see pan, all screw heads, cock screw and top jaw, etc. to determine if altered in any way. Shelby Gallien

[howal]

First of all, thanks to Joey R for the suggestion to contact J Talbert. I've done that and wait for a response.

Thanks also to Tanselman for his interest. The only restoration that I can see are some minor repairs to the stock along the barrel. The 7 patchbox screws do all seem to be brass. Here are a couple of better (I hope) photos of the lock. I've had the lock off and all seems good inside.

[J. Talbert]

First of all I’m no Eister expert, but I will admit that he’s probably my favorite maker and I have been lucky enough to handle and photograph several of his rifles.
I don’t know if he originated the basic patchbox design that he used repeatedly but I would argue that he developed it to its pinnacle.  In addition to its outline the engraving that he finished it off with is as good as a signature.
Some of his other signature features include his carving which like his engraving allows your mind to fill in details that are “implied” but not necessarily completed.  He was fond of cross hatching in both carving and engraving, and they both had a “flowing” feel to them.
His combs  tended to have a slight Roman nose and wrist  was a little on the tall side in profile.
He had a habit of applying a wrist inlay over top of the carving.  The PB release was long rectangular button in the toe plate.  He used the same side plate design repeatedly.
I can’t say that he never made a rifle of different design, without all these unique features but to the best of my knowledge, there’s no such signed example out there.

Definitely check out the Eister in the ALR library. (Sorry I’m not good at adding links, but perhaps the moderators can add it.)  https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14831.0

Having said all this, there were a number of York gunsmiths that arguably apprenticed under Eister or at least had some association with him, though none of them came up to his standards IMHO.

Howal I’m not really qualified to offer much information on your rifle other than to say that I doubt that there is any strong association to Eister.  The basic PB design is really the only feature that would tie it to him.  Perhaps a later gunmaker saw an Eister rifle or a rifle by one of his associates and simply liked the design.

FWIW, I doubt that the rifle in the Morphy auction was actually an Eister.  It lacks most of Eisters signature features.  From the sale price, I’d say the buyer didn’t think so either.

You have a nice original flintlock just the same.
All the best,
Jeff

Thanks Ron for adding the link above.

[howal]

Thanks to J. Talbert for his wisdom concerning Eister guns. It seems I've heard a few voices expressing doubt about mine being related to Eister. Similarly, I haven't heard anyone doubt the possibility that it is a New York gun, so I guess I'll go with that for now.

I'm still thinking it's from the first quarter of the 19thC. Any thoughts on that?

I haven't tracked down a used Kindig book, but I have found Henry Kauffman's "The Pennsylvania Kentucky Rifle" (1960) and John Dillin's "The Kentucky Rifle" (1959), and am looking forward to a winter of reading. It seems the 1950's was the golden age of interest in early American rifles. I suppose all those vets had developed an interest in guns and history, and had started to accumulate some discretionary cash by then. More power to them!