Last of the Mohicans Killdeer Rifle

[Pukka Bundook]

It used to be Robert the Bruce's battleaxe when I first heard it, Daryl!

[Bsunderlin87]

This thread has sat for a while, but I thought I could share some information as I came across this and am interested in the rifle. I reached out to Wayne several years ago, in 2016, and asked if he could make me a Killdeer rifle. I had nagged him several times, and he said he didn’t care about the gun anymore or the idea of making one.

A while later, I believed that a family member needed medical care, and he said he would make one. He said that this would be his 7th and final rifle. So I was excited when I went to go pick up the gun in that, along with the rifle, he also gave me his original drawing, stock template, wooden pattern piece, and all of his notes and sketches in a folder of the gun that he kept while making the first rifles.

My rifle was made as close to the original in the movie as that is what I asked for. It has a 48” 50. cal swamped barrel with round bottom rifling. He said he used Getz barrels. He also said that the stock for mine came out of the same tree that all other rifles did. I don’t know if that is true, but that’s what he said. The pull is around 15”, as I am relatively tall. All the furniture is steel, finished in white, and has a small Siler lock. It has a sliding wooden patchbox and rawhide wrap around the wrist to simulate a repair. There are also seed bead inlays around the barrel pins. He did sign the top flat of the barrel. 

I can post some images of the material if anyone is interested. I find the stock shape very comfortable to shoulder in that the sights align naturally under the eye. The only problem is that the touch hole is too low, so I need to bore out and fit a touch hole liner slightly above where it needs to be. He also had to notch the underside of the barrel where the forward lock plate screw goes into the stock. I wasn’t too thrilled about this as that notch is right at the front of where the load sits in the barrel. As this rifle is very long, I don’t think it makes for a very convenient gun in the field, but as a target shooter, 50 grains of FFF is fine, and I haven’t had any problems with the barrel.

[smylee grouch]

Is there enuf " meat " below the pan to grind the pan deeper ?

[GrizG]

While at Williamsburg this past July Richard showed me a 60" barrel he had just welded up... George Suiter smiled when I got back to his home and told him about it... It seemed crazy long but would have been easily adapted to such a gun as under discussion here! I wonder if he used it yet?

[Bsunderlin87]

I could probably grind the pan down some, but I’d rather put a liner in it. Is there anyone else that is making, or rifling, longer barrels? I am building one right now that I’d like a 52” barrel, but none of the manufacturers are capable of rifling that long.

[Ats5331]

Geez I forgot I was the original poster on this haha. Would love to see some pictures and hear more info.

Not looking to build this one anytime soon, but would still be interested in learning more about it!

Cheers

[Pukka Bundook]

While at Williamsburg this past July Richard showed me a 60" barrel he had just welded up... George Suiter smiled when I got back to his home and told him about it... It seemed crazy long but would have been easily adapted to such a gun as under discussion here! I wonder if he used it yet?

With a barrel that long, you need a small enlargement in the bore half way up, so the ball can stop and have a rest on the way out!

[Jim Kibler]

This thread has sat for a while, but I thought I could share some information as I came across this and am interested in the rifle. I reached out to Wayne several years ago, in 2016, and asked if he could make me a Killdeer rifle. I had nagged him several times, and he said he didn’t care about the gun anymore or the idea of making one.

A while later, I believed that a family member needed medical care, and he said he would make one. He said that this would be his 7th and final rifle. So I was excited when I went to go pick up the gun in that, along with the rifle, he also gave me his original drawing, stock template, wooden pattern piece, and all of his notes and sketches in a folder of the gun that he kept while making the first rifles.

My rifle was made as close to the original in the movie as that is what I asked for. It has a 48” 50. cal swamped barrel with round bottom rifling. He said he used Getz barrels. He also said that the stock for mine came out of the same tree that all other rifles did. I don’t know if that is true, but that’s what he said. The pull is around 15”, as I am relatively tall. All the furniture is steel, finished in white, and has a small Siler lock. It has a sliding wooden patchbox and rawhide wrap around the wrist to simulate a repair. There are also seed bead inlays around the barrel pins. He did sign the top flat of the barrel. 

I can post some images of the material if anyone is interested. I find the stock shape very comfortable to shoulder in that the sights align naturally under the eye. The only problem is that the touch hole is too low, so I need to bore out and fit a touch hole liner slightly above where it needs to be. He also had to notch the underside of the barrel where the forward lock plate screw goes into the stock. I wasn’t too thrilled about this as that notch is right at the front of where the load sits in the barrel. As this rifle is very long, I don’t think it makes for a very convenient gun in the field, but as a target shooter, 50 grains of FFF is fine, and I haven’t had any problems with the barrel.

A touch hole low in the pan is as fast or perhaps  slightly faster than one at the top.  Larry Pletcher did this computerized timing and testing.  Also, notching for a front lock bolt should be no concern if it is of typical depth and the barrel is reasonably thick.  Probably no need to worry about either.

[rich pierce]

So long as you don’t shoot a lot in high humidity, I agree, a low touch hole should be no problem. There were days in STL on the range with multiple relays when I fought a slurry of black goo in the pan of one of my smoothbores with a low touch hole. It might happen at Friendship as well. But for hunting and most range and plinking situations, no worries.

[Bsunderlin87]

I might play around then with powder, charging, and bumping the charge in the pan off to the far side, this gun is just notoriously bad at getting the main charge to go off. I have had sessions where there are like 15 flashes in the pan before I get the gun to go off. When I put a vent pick down the touch hole there is also a pretty severe angle forward that that the hole was drilled at. It might be too small too.

[Dan Fruth]

A bit off topic, but James F Cooper got his information regarding Indian customs from a book written by John Heckewelder, who was assistant to the Moravian missionary David Zeisburger.  The work was sponsored by Casper Wistar's grandson, Dr. Wistar. A reprint is available online.
https://www.amazon.com/History-Inhabited-Pennsylvania-Neighboring-Historical/dp/1556134118

[duca]

This thread has sat for a while, but I thought I could share some information as I came across this and am interested in the rifle. I reached out to Wayne several years ago, in 2016, and asked if he could make me a Killdeer rifle. I had nagged him several times, and he said he didn’t care about the gun anymore or the idea of making one.

A while later, I believed that a family member needed medical care, and he said he would make one. He said that this would be his 7th and final rifle. So I was excited when I went to go pick up the gun in that, along with the rifle, he also gave me his original drawing, stock template, wooden pattern piece, and all of his notes and sketches in a folder of the gun that he kept while making the first rifles.

My rifle was made as close to the original in the movie as that is what I asked for. It has a 48” 50. cal swamped barrel with round bottom rifling. He said he used Getz barrels. He also said that the stock for mine came out of the same tree that all other rifles did. I don’t know if that is true, but that’s what he said. The pull is around 15”, as I am relatively tall. All the furniture is steel, finished in white, and has a small Siler lock. It has a sliding wooden patchbox and rawhide wrap around the wrist to simulate a repair. There are also seed bead inlays around the barrel pins. He did sign the top flat of the barrel. 

I can post some images of the material if anyone is interested. I find the stock shape very comfortable to shoulder in that the sights align naturally under the eye. The only problem is that the touch hole is too low, so I need to bore out and fit a touch hole liner slightly above where it needs to be. He also had to notch the underside of the barrel where the forward lock plate screw goes into the stock. I wasn’t too thrilled about this as that notch is right at the front of where the load sits in the barrel. As this rifle is very long, I don’t think it makes for a very convenient gun in the field, but as a target shooter, 50 grains of FFF is fine, and I haven’t had any problems with the barrel.

How about a picture of this Rifle? I think we all would Love to see it
Thanks

[frogwalking]

Rob,

That was Turner kirkland who said that.  It was in a very old Dixie catalog.

[t.caster]

My first impression was it looks like a Hatfield shaped stock to me, with a wood patchbox to make it more period correct. Now I agree it looks Lehigh-ish, but that would be toooo early for the F&I War! JUst Hollywood fantasy. Hahaha

[Daryl]

I might play around then with powder, charging, and bumping the charge in the pan off to the far side, this gun is just notoriously bad at getting the main charge to go off. I have had sessions where there are like 15 flashes in the pan before I get the gun to go off. When I put a vent pick down the touch hole there is also a pretty severe angle forward that that the hole was drilled at. It might be too small too.

As Jim noted, Pletch's tests show bumping the powder to the outside of the pan slowed ignition & also that a low vent was also faster than a sunset position vent.

[Sequatchie Rifle]

This is an amazingly informative and interesting posting. Photos would make it even more interesting. Cooper’s books and the movie is what introduced many of us to this obsession.

[Hawken62_flint]

I too was enamored with the Killdeer rifle in the movie LOM and thought I had to have a copy, only left handed. On April 28, 2011 when Wayne Watson was living in Florida I called him and we talked about the rifle. He was very accommodating and gave me a lot of information about the rifle. What follows is from my notes taken during our conversation.
Barrel was swamped  .50 caliber 50 inches long built by Getz  (1 1/16" at the breech, 13/16" at mid and 7/8 at the muzzle)
Mann wanted the gun to look as long as possible so Wayne used a small Siler lock which made it appear longer.
Triggers were Davis
Stock loosely based on Allentown School (Rupp), with all iron furniture (Rupp buttplate, Isaac Haines triggerguard)
Stock stained light (Wayne and Brian LeMaster worked together on the finish on some of the rifles) The wood had curl, but wide spaced and light similar to a John Beck

Eventually I had EdRayl make me a barrel to the specs that Wanye gave me and then in 2021 I had Mike Brooks build me a Lehigh rifle using the 50 inch barrel. It is a joy to shoot and have carried it hunting on more than one occasion.  I shoot 100 grains of 3F and it is super accurate. I love the way it feels and shoulders. Thanks to Mike it is a keeper.
BTW, Wayne Watson was so helpful and said he would be happy to have sent me a buttpkate and trigger guard like he used, but he had given the last ones he had away. And I still have a folder I kept on the Kilkdeer Rifle with all my notes and pictures of the rifle. But I am more than satisfied with my Brooks Lehigh.

[duca]

Still no pictures???

[Hawken62_flint]

If I can attach it, here is a picture of Wayne with 2 of the Killdeer rifles he built.

[duca]

Wow! Thanks for the picture!! Look how young Wayne was

[Crow Choker]

I've loved LOTM movie since it came out. No idea how many times I've watched it. Just did again around a week ago after reading this thread and a similar one on the Muzz-Loader Forum. Weather permitting at times after watching the movie I was so pumped up I've grabbed my Hawkin MZ and headed for the river and timber just plinking at targets of opportunity on family property. Would have no problem having a like Killdeer rifle even though its been picked apart for non-authenticity. A larger lock would be better and ifin I'd build or have one it would have a darker reddish color with a tint of black to it like alot of flint MzLoaders I see. I don't like stocks on rifles of any kind with that light blondish color. Same with guitars, have none and will not have any of the light maple tops I see off and on. I suppose the movie who's who wanted that light color so as to stand out. Seems the MO is to pick apart the Killdeer rifle so this is just my rant. 

[t.caster]

The Kildeer rifles are fine for the post Rev. War period. No problem there. It is just when you insert it into the F&I period that everyone goes bonkers.

[DDTM#2]

Just joined the group this AM.  My initial reason was the rifle I own built by Wayne Watson.  It is the fourth "Killdeer" rifle and so marked with his name.  The barrel is 47" from the tang piece to the muzzle.  As I recall, he told me there were three rifles prior to mine at the time (1994) that I contacted him for the build.  Twentieth Century Fox had one, Daniel-Day Lewis had one and one was destroyed during filming of Michael Mann's "The Last of the Mohican".  He was reluctant to build the rifle, and as reported here in several posts, he highly criticized it as not being correct for the period.  Anyway, I really wanted it at the time, and he did build it for $2500.  The only item he forgot was the beads on the stock, which he sent me with instructions on installation.  I still have the beads in the container he sent...never installed them.  I did fire the rifle at 50 yards, and evidently my aging eyes were able to get a three shot 2.5" group.  He recommended pillow ticking with "spit" and 65-73 grains.  I followed his suggestions.

In 2017 I contacted Wayne for information on any rifles made after the one he made for me.  He told me that he had built only one other in the past twenty years, and doubted that there were more than six total to that date.  He again said that he always tried to talk people out of building them and succeeded except for "a couple of folks, and you were one."  Others he just turned down.  It was evident Wayne was not a fan of this rifle. 

I do have a .54 rifle built on what I perceive is the "Lancaster" style.  It is marked "C Mead" without a serial number.  Unlike the "Killdeer", it has less drop at the comb, and the steel is browned with brass butt plate, trigger guard, muzzle cap, ramrod ferrules.  Does anyone recognize this builder?  I bought the rifle in Springfield, Oregon about the same time as Watson's Killdeer. 

[bigsmoke]

Nothing to do with the rifle, just with movie production waste.
Last of the Mohicans prop people ordered 50 shooting bags from us of various styles.  After a couple of watches, I could only identify one.  Where did the other 49 go?
We also supplied flints to them.  I imagine a lot of the people in the cast went home with a year's supply.
I forget how many horns they ordered, but none of them made it into the movie.
And if anybody has not had a chance to visit and tour a Hollywood prop business, try to do it.  The guns they have would put most museums to shame.  Purely mind boggling.
John (Bigsmoke)

[Bigmon]

This is so very interesting.  I must admit I have not time to read every post, but I have not seen any mention of a fella named Ron Luckenbull??  I may be wrong, and usually am, but I believe I was once told he made the rifle for that movie??
Could it have been a different movie?  There really are not that many movies of this type?
Anyone else have anything on Ron Luckenbill??
Great thread and I WILL read it all when I can.