No more priming with 4f

[Nhgrants]

today was a lite snow and damp in Vermont. The 4f in my pan really caked up.
Ive also had 4f dribble out of the pan as when it caked up the frizzen didnt seat
Properly.  For hunting is there any disadavantage to priming with 2 f?

[rich pierce]

I hate pan mud. I now routinely prime with main charge powder when hunting and don’t care if it is 2F or 3F.

[EC121]

I put a toothpick in the hole and don't prime until it is necessary.

[wolf]

][ftp=ftp://]]][/ftp]][ftp][/ftp]i use 2f when i shoot 2f, instant ignition. i have a can of f4 i will never use again. just killed this doe at 93 paces with my 54 southern rifle, she diden't have time to duck,,,,,,,,,,,https://i.imgur.com/KnAe65gl.jpg

[MuskratMike]

Maybe it is the area I live but I for one will stick to my 4F in the pan. If the weather looks rainy I will slip on my goat hide "cows knee" to cover the lock. I have used 3F also and see not much slower ignition speed but prefer the 4F always have always will.

[wolf]

i see absolutely no difference in 4f and 2f, or 3f, i am sure a high speed camera would show there is a difference but shooting i can't tell,,,,,,,,,,,,,

[Greg Pennell]

I normally prime with whatever is in my horn...mostly 2F or 3F.  Even my priming horns are 3F, but I usually only use them if I’m shooting something coarser than 2F...1 1/2 F Swiss, for example. My 16 bore seems partial to the Swiss, and while the big Chambers English lock will set it off just fine, the 3F seems noticeably quicker.

Greg

[WadePatton]

i see absolutely no difference in 4f and 2f, or 3f, i am sure a high speed camera would show there is a difference but shooting i can't tell,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Larry Pletcher timed them all quite a while ago.  That information is on here somewhere.

I had issues with 4f the only time I hunted with it (a windy day and me too green to know to check my pan regularly) and found my pan empty at the end of my day.  Considering Pletcher's experiments in timing, I haven't used it since.  I prime with what's in the horn, and that approach as taken 2 nice bucks, one up close at 17 paces and one at ~100 across a pond (difficult to pace). (2f, 54 cal).

I won't hunt with 4f.  I might target shoot with it, but haven't done a lot of that yet in this mode.

[thelongrifle]

It seem to me that the sparks get down into the kernels of 3f and 2f better than 4f. Sometimes 4f seems to make a glazed over smooth surface that doesn’t ignite easily. If I am at a club shoot where I am priming on the line 4 f is fine. Otherwise 3 f is better in my view.

[StevenV]

Changing granulation's of your pan powder won't solve moisture issues. All black powder has an affinity for moisture. I use 4F and null B and never have an issue when hunting. Do you dump your pan powder out frequently while hunting? I was hunting today(PA) and dumped at least 7 times. Do not blow it out , brush it out and start fresh frequently through out the day. It should slide around in your pan, that tells you no moisture in the powder. My brother , his sons , my children we all follow these steps goes off all the time. For me hunting in a snow storm with a gun I've made is about as good as it gets. We always cover lock with "cow's knee" with the slightest bit of moisture in the air, flurries or snow cover up. Rain, I don't hunt in but this will work for rain also.   
Here is a pic of the "cow's knee" we use. We make them for all our guns.    Steve

[Daryl]

I prefer 3F for priming my flinters. I've never tried Null B, but know I would prefer it over all others.
I did find 3F Old Enysford was better than GOEX 3F for priming last time out shooting with the .36.
I still prefer the 4f GOEX over 3F.
Larry Pletcher's chart on priming speeds.
(tks Larry)
I assume the late and early GOEX charts are GOEX4F.

[Pukka Bundook]

Steven,

It's a known fact that the finer the powder, the quicker it imbibes moisture.
I used 4 F the first time I hunted with a rifle many moons ago.   
For the next forever , (likely 30 years now)  I have used same powder as main charge.   2 F mainly .

Daryl,
Yes some are faster than others but human beings can't tell the difference most of the time.   My 2 F always worked and brought home the meat.

[Daryl]

My 2F did as well, Richard.  All 165gr. of it.
Caps for ignition - they ALWAYS work(ed).
When I tested priming powders, I found, to my senses, that 3F was slower than 4F. Taylor's testing also showed this, where he felt
3F was slower than 4F - thus we use 4F.
If I had Swiss 4F or Nul B, I would use that. I need every advantage I can get as my flint lock shooting is not stellar at the best of times.

[Jeff Murray]

I have used many of the techniques mentioned, toothpick, cow's knee, sweep and replace, prime when you are on the game, all depending on the circumstances.  If  you are losing 4f from your pan on a windy day, you have a fitment issue between the top surface of the pan and the bottom surface of the frizzen, and possibly the side of the barrel.

[Dphariss]

I can tell the difference in 2f and 4f in my rifles. Nul B is about the same as FFFF goex by ear/feel. The main charge is lit off by the heat FFFF is 4 times faster than FF. Or so I have been told. Since its a surface burning propellant. More surface, faster burn, faster heat.
Having fouling in contact with the powder will cause issues if the humidity is high. I grew up in NE Iowa fouling turns to black goo pretty fast at 90% humidity.
In a clean pan I have never had a problem with the prime getting wet. Powder that will absorb water from the air is poor powder no matter the granulation. Think powder on a warship in the 18th and early 19th c. With the powder magazine below the waterline in the hull. Water in the bilge etc. If the powder would not stand high humidity? The cannon and muskets are just decorations.
If I were hunting and firing more than one shot I would wipe the pan clean. It should wipe off easy if the humidity is high.

Dan

[Ray Nelson]

I've been using 4fg in my flint hunting guns pan for over 40 years now. I've never had issue as I take precautions to keep the moisture at bay. I've carried in humid, fog, rain and snow storms with lock tucked up under armpit and when sitting on stand in bad weather throw a spare leather glove over frizzen pan and lock area checking as I deem necessary to swipe out and refresh. It's not very often that I find I have to refresh.

I experimented one time in a wet snow storm and let the area get completely snow covered. I test fired at a dead log and the prime flashed as usual, however the torch hole had plugged with moisture. Run my vent pick thru hole to charge, re-primed the pan and bang it fired.

This has been my experience and somehow it works for me.

Ray

[Marcruger]

I can certainly tell the difference in NullB/4f versus 2f in a pan.
 
Capguns go "BANG" when the trigger breaks
NullB/4f in the pan go "chick-BANG"
2f in the pan goes "chick....BANG". 

Larry Pletcher's test proved out what I feel. 

That said, I used to prime with NullB, but have switched to 4f.  Bill Knight solved a problem I was having with NullB.  It's fast, but plates the pan with what looks and acts like black spray paint with each shot.  It turns out that in my weather conditions, the increased graphite in NUllB is sticking to the pan.  Hard to get off.  While NullB is a touch faster than 4f, the 4f leaves less mess. 

I guess pan powder depends on your use.  For the range I like the fastest I can get.  In a wet tree stand, I would probably have other considerations.  I would say that hunting ethics demand using something accurate.  If 2f in the pan gives you accuracy, then by all means.....

Just 2 opinion and view.    God Bless,   Marc

[smylee grouch]

Most of the time I use Null B but when hunting I almost always seal around the pan with bear lard/bees wax mix even if the weather is fine. I never lose prime with a sealed pan even using Null B. It works for me

[Bob McBride]

I use NullB when conditions are just right but will use 3f in a pinch. Any will work depending on your tolerance for the less than ideal.

[Nhgrants]

Another thing that i experieced twice was that if any of the caked 4f is in the touch hole
When i fired off the round, the caked powder sounded like a fuse after the flash and took probably a 1/4 second to fire.

[StevenV]

Nhgrants you have a moisture issue. Granulation has nothing to do with your problems. All black powder has an affinity for water, no matter what granulation( Where is the Mad Monk when we need him). Not going to press for Null -B or 4F anymore you can decide which size prime powder you want to use. Heck the best shooter I've ever know used 1F in his barrel and 1F in his pan, Richard has since passed on but we still have lots of his knowledge that he passed on. If you feel better with 2F or 3F use it not going to press for what I use. When you step to the line or go out hunting and you don't feel confident with what your using , your already defeated. I do want to point out that the trials by Larry Pletcher posted here again by Daryl show Null-B the fastest and on down the line. The reason we strive for fastest prime , lock time , powder charge is for accuracy. When my daughter and I were out at Friendship we came across the " tools" the top offhand shooters were using. 40cal. , swiss, null-B and 1 1/8" barrel cut back to 36" so the ball gets out the barrel as soon as possible. Of all the black powders out there swiss burns the cleanest. During our monthly  shoots I prime with null-B , and shoot 25, 35, 45 shots on those nice hot humid summer days  without wiping out the pan. Can't do that with other powders. Enough said , rather long winded( I have that luxury now ,farm is shut down for the season) to tell you if you would like, PM me with your number and I will set you up with a " cows knee " if you would like.  Steve

[MuskratMike]

What Steven V says. saved me a lot of typing.

[Larry Pletcher]

I couldn't keep from making a few comments about priming powder.  Thanks to Daryl for posting the chart of data.  The link below includes the article and a couple more charts than might help.  As Daryl suggested the early and late Goex is 4fg.  Early Goex was made before the plant moved, using the water available in PA. The late Goex was 4fg after the plant moved.

The lock I used was a very well tuned Siler from the '80s.  I'd encourage you to read the text to see what steps were taken to gain valid results - at least as best I could. 

One last thought is a comparison between Goex 3f and the Swiss priming powders.  The fastest time recorded with Goex 3f was slower than the slowest Swiss Null B time.  I typically use Null B for priming.  Because it has more surface area, it can draw damp.  I would rather dump and replace prime more frequently than change to a larger size. I do respect those who prefer larger sizes when hunting.

https://www.blackpowdermag.com/priming-powder-timing/
Regards,
Pletch

[Marcruger]

Larry.  My sincere thanks for your super well thought out and executed tests.  The priming powder one was especially helpful.  As I noted, I only recently shifted to 4f in the pan from Null B, as the Null B leaves a hard coating of graphite on my pan.  Best wishes, and God Bless,   Marc

[hanshi]

I've always primed with 4F when in the hunting woods.  Other times I prime with whatever I have at hand.  I don't hunt in the rain or in the wind.  But having said that I have hunted in wind, heavy fog, drizzle and downpours.  I've never had a gun NOT spark and fire just fine after as much as 3 hours sitting in heavy rain.  What gives me fits is once the gun is fired any trace of fouling immediately turns to soup in rain, humidity, etc.  I don't have a cow's knee so just use posture, coat, whatever and it all stays dry and ready.  The only thing I can see that would really cause prime failure would be very strong winds and I stay inside if there is that kind of wind outside.  Nowadays I won't even get out of bed if its windy or raining at all.