Author Topic: How to Compensate (Read 3181 times)

DHouse · « **on:** December 18, 2020, 07:04:47 PM »

Good Day All,

I have a question I could not seem to find an answer for on forum so apologize if already asked. I'm building my first piece, a fowler. I had a question about sighting-in rifles/fowlers as I have never shot one. If after all the building, when you're finally at the range and the ball is shooting to the left(or right) of target, how would you adjust for that? I only know how to do it on a modern rifle you can adjust your scope and hone-in a tighter pattern. But with a longrifle what would you do to make the ball go back to center? I had read somewhere about Hershel House bending his barrels like a pry-bar to adjust their accuracy. Is there some truth to this? Or does one learn to shoot each particular rifle by experience? Knowing that you'd need to aim left with this gun, but aim right with that gun, etc.

Thanks All,

-D

rich pierce · « **Reply #1 on:** December 18, 2020, 07:21:04 PM »

For guns with sights you move the rear sight in the direction you need the ball to go. Of shooting low, raise the rear sight. Since with fixed sights this is impossible:

If shooting low file the front sight down
If shooting high file the rear sight down
If shooting to the left, move the rear sight to the right
If shooting to the right, move the rear sight to the left.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #2 on:** December 18, 2020, 08:50:00 PM »

Short of removing the front sight of a smooth bore and moving it over to one side or the other, bending the barrel is the answer to adjusting windage issues. But before you do, shoot the gun a lot to determine if it's really the gun or is it you? Work up a load that satisfies your accuracy requirements, and then shoot many targets with it. If after all that you a re certain that the gun is shooting left, for example by several inches, remove the barrel from the stock and bend it to the right. There are several ways to do the bending, some primitive and some controlled and scientific. I determine which way I want the barrel to bend, seize it by the muzzle and give the barrel a whack against the side of a pole or tree. Replace the barrel to the stock, and try a couple more groups.
As an example of this process, I built a nice fowler for Leatherbelly (RIP my friend) and when we took it out to fire it, his groups were three inches to the left at 25 yards off a bench. He was consistent and disappointed with the accuracy/consistency. So I gave him his money back and promply had myself a brand new Chambers' Pennsylvania Fowling in 20 gauge. On the next outing to the range, I and my brother Daryl both shot the gun, again at 25 yards off the bench, and chewed the centre out of the target. The accuracy issue was the shooter. And in spite of showing Leatherbelly our results, he wouldn't have anything to do with the gun, 'cause it shot 3" left!! I love the piece and have won many matches with it with round ball.
I have also used the other system of correcting windage, ie: remove and replace the front sight. Usually, this is after the client has filed way too much off the front sight in an effort to get it to shoot higher, so I corrected the height issue and the windage issue at the same time by adding a new sight.

Daryl · « **Reply #3 on:** December 18, 2020, 10:04:17 PM »

There are other ways, but they involve trips to and from the range. If you can do it at the range as Taylor suggested, it's quicker.
BTW- not only did that barrel shoot in line after this initial bending, but we shot a 6 shot group (3 each) at 50 yards, that was 3" in diameter.

This barrel did not bend the first time this was done. Note the bend of the bench as well. That's a solid core door, bench-top.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #4 on:** December 18, 2020, 10:21:21 PM »

If the gun is only a very small amount off to one side you can file JUST A TAD off the side of the front sight. This only if your front sight is thick enough to do so. Other wise I agree that you might want to replace the front sight or bend the barrel.

Idaho Wolf tracker · « **Reply #5 on:** December 19, 2020, 12:39:53 AM »

Really good information . Thanks for posting

DHouse · « **Reply #6 on:** December 19, 2020, 07:36:26 PM »

Hi Rich, I’m a little disappointed with myself for not considering that. It's so logical! The best solutions seem to always be the simplest ones. If the rear sight is press-fit or swaged into place how would you move it left or right? I’m not that far in my build yet but am curious and haven’t gotten that far in my self-eduction.
Daryle, I recognize those sections of press brake die tooling. Very cool and a wild photo. Never seen anything like that with that barrel being bent in such a way.
Thank you all so much for this invaluable information. I love that I can ask some of the best builders working and they share so freely of their time and knowledge.

-D

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #7 on:** December 19, 2020, 07:48:03 PM »

Just FYI: that barrel, even bent to that extreme from straight, never did take a bend. It straightened right out and I could not get it to bend. I was sure it was going to break, but it did not. I got those "V" blocks from my dad - pretty handy.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #8 on:** December 19, 2020, 08:35:48 PM »

I found out the hard way, that severe bends tend to spring back until just before you kink the barrel. My remedy was to attach a EMT conduit bender to the ram of a cheap bottle jack, and force the barrel upward with the shoe of the bender. This spreads the force out, and allows you to bend without kinks. I did so many years ago, that I bored some holes in the bench top to accommodate the barrel hold downs. I also added a taunt string along the length of the barrel to gauge how much bend I had accomplished. It doesn’t take that much bend to move the point of impact a lot.

Hungry Horse

smylee grouch · « **Reply #9 on:** December 19, 2020, 08:47:31 PM »

I have never done it so am curious if a gentle heat to the barrel while it is bent like Taylors would help it to bend and not spring back as much? $:-\$

Daryl · « **Reply #10 on:** December 19, 2020, 10:26:25 PM »

Now why didn't I think of that, smylee grouch? That might work well and would "likely" need less bending of the barrel.
1 small step at a time.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #11 on:** December 20, 2020, 12:56:33 AM »

As I mentioned in the last post, a gentle heat but if you were to heat the barrel you might also want to secure ( clamp-wire down, etc. ) any soldered on sights or under lugs.

Scota4570 · « **Reply #12 on:** December 20, 2020, 01:19:17 AM »

With shotgun barrels I take a more controlled approach. I use a mandril inside the barrel. Without a mandril you get a kink. I use a large lathe to secure the supported muzzle. I use a dial indicator to determine how far I have bent the barrel and how crooked it was to start.

The trouble for me is that bending a barrel a couple of thousands is extremely difficult. I have to get it a the exact deflection where bending overcomes the spring. To little and no bend, too much and I make a banana.

Filing the muzzle will change the point of impact too. It is worth a try. IT can easily be recrowned if it goes bad.

Craig Wilcox · « **Reply #13 on:** December 20, 2020, 02:24:54 AM »

OP - if no one else has mentioned it, an easy way to remember is the word FORS.

Front Opposite, Rear Same. In other words, move the front sight OPPOSITE to where you want the shot to go. If moving the REAR sight, move it the same way.

You'll get it - lots of good advice here.

Not English · « **Reply #14 on:** December 20, 2020, 04:56:00 AM »

Smylee, You are correct in your suggestions regarding heat. In another life I worked for a custom sheetmetal manufacturer. We had a job making large SS sausage processing tunnels for Oscar Mayer. Part of the process required brining. The brining tunnel had large pipes with heavy fittings all down one side of the pipe. After welding that many fittings on none side of a pipe it took a very definite warp. We did exactly what Daryl did and then applied heat to the pipe on one side to ease the warp. This was done on an industrial scale, but the idea is the same. We left everything clamped up until cool to the touch. Frequently we had to repeat the process.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #15 on:** December 20, 2020, 05:18:03 AM »

Not English, thanks for that insight and comment. I had been told by a farm implement repairman that thats what they had to do to long shafts that had gotten bent when they didn't have replacement parts on hand so was curious if it would work for this application too. I hope I never have to try it but it's nice to have a plan just in case.

Daryl · « **Reply #16 on:** December 20, 2020, 11:54:31 PM »

Further to Scota4570's post, I would suggest that without his mandrel method, you could get a kink, not a positive happening, just a possibility.
I've watched Taylor bend a barrel using an aspen tree's trunk and slamming the barrel, against it, re-fixing the barrel in the stock, removing and re-whacking
it, repeating until it shot the way he wanted. No mandrel used and no kinks. Starting "easy" is requisite and you will learn from that how much 'force' is needed,
on that particular barrel. They will all be slightly different, more than likely.

Hungry Horse · « **Reply #17 on:** December 21, 2020, 03:22:58 AM »

Daryl I saw a tree used at a rendezvous to sight in a new tradegun. The guy took the barrel out of the stock after deducting where it needed bending, and stuck it in the crotch of a tree, and gave her a tweak. Stuck it back together, shot it a few times, and decided it wasn’t enough, and did it again. He put it back together shot it and decided it was good to go. We were all drinking beer, and laughing at him. The next day we weren’t laughing when he whipped all of us, and took first place in tradegun class.

Hungry Horse

Daryl · « **Reply #18 on:** December 21, 2020, 03:54:46 AM »

"IT" happens to us all. We didn't have a crotch, just a trunk. I think it's Mike Brooks who uses the crotch in a tree for 'bending' barrels.
Taylor just "thunked" his.
I shot that musket on small hanging gong at 50 meters and hit it 3 times in a row, offhand. The little plate wasn't 3" in diameter. That was
with a .735" ball and .030" kinda-loose weave cotton carpet meterial. The gun was a 10 bore, .774" bore.

DHouse · « **Reply #19 on:** December 21, 2020, 08:27:07 PM »

Wow, I'm so fascinated by how popular the tree use is. It really does seem like the most straight-forward way if it must be done at all. I'll probably want to shoot 100 rounds before I even start questioning the barrels need to be bent as that seems like the very last resort, after you've adjusted sights as much as possible and tested different loads and shooting positions, etc.. Lot's of trips to the range I'm thinking

kudu · « **Reply #20 on:** December 21, 2020, 08:45:06 PM »

I you live close (Clio Michigan) I can help. I done this with a controlled method several Times.
I use indicators and a large mill for a better "Guess" of how much.

You do want the (banana shape) not a "bend " or Kink.

The worse I ever did was shooting 10" low at 28yds with the lowest front sight you could posibly use . 3 "bends" out of the stock, and I had it shooting in a 3" circle every time after.

DHouse · « **Reply #21 on:** January 06, 2021, 08:32:02 PM »

Thanks for the offer and advice kudu. I am still in the early stages of my build however and not ready to begin the shooting process. Also am very, very far from Michigan unfortunately.

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Author Topic: How to Compensate (Read 3181 times)

Idaho Wolf tracker