Author Topic: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment  (Read 7185 times)

Offline pulaski

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #25 on: December 27, 2020, 12:19:57 AM »
Mule ,
If you go to the first picture of the bore .Press and hold the left mouse button and drag the image . You will get an overlay .
It will show you that there is more thickness on the left side than the right side of the muzzle .
This is what the others are referring to as runout . might be the reason for the severe rightness .
JM.02
Steve

Offline Daryl

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #26 on: December 27, 2020, 02:58:57 AM »
Always looked to me as if there was a bit more meat on the top and right side of the barrel  (on left side of the picture) the side the front sight is drifted to.
The second picture shows it better than the top one, however I still "see" a bit of run-out in the top "muzzle shot" as well. The run-out
I see would make the rifle shoot to the left, not the right, however the bent front sight and off-centre  notch in the rear sight, would make
for a rifle shooting to the right.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 03:03:08 AM by Daryl »
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Offline John SMOthermon

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #27 on: December 27, 2020, 05:25:01 AM »
        I = Front sight too far right

      /   = Line of Sight across the barrel

    ^    = Rear sight too far left

       I
       !
       V = Bingo! Or close.

Here’s some close up pics of the barrel ....






The sights..




« Last Edit: December 27, 2020, 05:38:51 AM by John SMOthermon »
Smo

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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #28 on: December 27, 2020, 09:22:39 PM »
From what I see in those photos, the sights themselves need some work.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #29 on: December 28, 2020, 08:15:50 PM »
In the last image of the rear sight, the front end of the base of the sight has been moved over to the left, but the actual blade end still sits in the middle of the barrel, as does the notch.  Likewise, the front sight is not sitting parallel to the bore, and may even be bent on the front end, to the right. 
Mule Brain:  you'll get more accurate results on paper, if your attention to details like these are more accurate.
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Offline Mule Brain

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2020, 02:52:36 AM »
Again disregards the sights in the pictures, as the sights were centered on the barrel when the target was shot. 

I am shipping the barrel to Colerain this week, as I just got back into town. It is a 44" .50 caliber.

I will report what they find out

Regards 
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Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2020, 08:09:57 PM »
I give up.
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Offline Sparkitoff

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #32 on: January 10, 2021, 12:58:36 AM »
Well I experienced this today with a rifle I hadn't shot. It grouped consistently 3/4" left at the range I was shooting. The front sight is welded and the rear sight would not budge in it's dovetail. I filed the right side of the front sight a bit and the right window frame of the rear sight notch. It took a few times to take off the right amount but it did move the impact where it belongs. I know you sent the barrel off in your situation. I'm just reporting that I tried some of the remedies suggested in the above posts and was able to take care of the issue I was having, so in some instances it will work.

Offline Mule Brain

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #33 on: January 15, 2021, 09:19:45 PM »
The barrel arrived back here from Colerain, with no ticket or explanation. I know Scott looked at it, but have no idea what was done to it. They are closed today, but will find out on Monday. I will reinstall the barrel and give it another go this weekend. I will start with the sights centered and report what I find

Regards   
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Offline Mule Brain

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #34 on: January 16, 2021, 12:29:49 AM »
Scott sent me a message

It was slightly bent and I was able to straighten it, so I should now be much better. Please let me know. One thing I would suggest you do is slot the tennons, not just a single hole for the pins, to allow for expansion and contraction.

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Offline Mule Brain

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #35 on: January 19, 2021, 04:45:58 PM »
Got it out to the range again, and insured the sights were exactly centered

What they did may have helped a little. Shot from bench at 25yds 60 grains of fff, .490 round ball with .20 denim patch.

I am concerned that the barrel may need bent so much, that it may effect the stock.

I sent this info to them, and await their reply

 

 

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Offline dstock

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #36 on: January 19, 2021, 06:31:06 PM »
No more bend than that barrel needs you won't be able to even see the bend. Take the barrel out of the stock and whack it against a good tree.
It may take a few times in and out of the stock but it works, I have done it. Just get er done and move on.
I sure hope all works well for you. I think it will and you will look back and wonder what that was all about. ha ha

 Thanks and God Bless
 Doug B
God Bless
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Offline Daryl

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #37 on: January 19, 2021, 10:15:02 PM »
Is that only 25 yards? Must have a bit of a bend. 
DougB is right, it won't take much to get it right.  The longer the barrel, the less bend
it actually needs. Quite possibly, the hole is not quite in the middle, as it appeared in the photos
but with the thicker material on the right side of the barrel, it should be shooting left, not to the right.
Must be an optical illusion.
« Last Edit: January 20, 2021, 05:55:36 AM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline kudu

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #38 on: January 20, 2021, 12:08:29 AM »
Well I dont Know if you want to hear this or not.

Butt you need to bend the barrel If you lived closer I think I could fix it for you.

I bend mine Mostly Smoothbore Trade gun "Types" in a large mill with wood Vee blocks and a dial indicator.

I dont really like the "smack it against a tree method" unless thats the only way i had. and I still would try something different- maybe stand on it if absolutely necessary!

Now in your Situation I would use some blocks on a REAL sturdy table and a C clamp with a small block of hardwood about 3" long between the clamp and Barrel and find or Borrow a dial indicator.
 If you dont have a Table then something kinda straight and definitely stiffer than the barrel.

Put the blocks with 1" of muzzle , hanging past  the block, put the indicator at the
1 inch past the block and c- clamp about halfway point of barrel or a little less, toward muzzle.

when you bend the Barrel watch the indicator - flex the barrel by tightening the clamp then release clamp,  and see if it returns to "0" when let off. Do it 3 or 4 times to "set" or Find your "0" when the indicator stops .015 from your 0 point you moved it. Takes some Flexing and over flexin.

.015 you say!!!  Yup that will move the group. How far? about 3-4" at 25yd . Its a good Guess.

You can put the indicator a few inches back from the Muzzle its ok but remember thats where the ball exits.

I dont think the stock will know you ever did anything to the Barrlel and should fit just as before.

One last thing if you ever do this on a "Thin Barrel" smoothbore use wide wood vee blocks and "Pound" A Dowell in the muzzle about 2-3 inches. BEFORE bending.
 

Offline WadePatton

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #39 on: January 20, 2021, 12:21:27 AM »
I saw what Taylor was seeing. 

Now y'all keep on talking about bending when the maker says he bent it back straight good enough already.  I'd be confused too.

But it does appear to need another whacking.  And the only way I can see the rear sight being cocked like that is for the base and slot to not match up very well, or are cut out of square. 

Hope you get it shooting. Did you open up the tenons as Scott suggested?
Hold to the Wind

Offline alacran

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #40 on: January 20, 2021, 03:06:47 PM »
My self I would send it back to Colerain and demand another barrel or a refund. You have already wasted time  and money with all the shooting you have done with it. Time wasted sending it back and the BS about the pin holes. if that was causing the problem your first shots would not be 5 inches to the right. Not to mention that it doesn't group worth a hoot at 25 yards.
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Offline Mule Brain

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #41 on: January 20, 2021, 03:42:13 PM »
Thanks so much for all the info fellas, I really appreciate it.

I don't know why they didn't at least test fire it, after they supposedly fixed it?

I agree with the statement about the under lugs. It wouldn't effect it that much.

If I can get them to replace the barrel, will the barrel dimensions be the same? Barrel is swamped 
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Offline Robin Henderson

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #42 on: January 20, 2021, 06:31:25 PM »
I use to know an old gunsmith that worked on a lot of upper end guns. He never told a customer with a problem like this that he was going to bend their expensive barrel....He preferred to use the term "adjust".  ;) 
Flintlock is the only truly reliable source of ignition in a muzzle loader.

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #43 on: January 20, 2021, 07:13:36 PM »
I don't know if fixing your rear sight notch will change your points of impact much but it could help in group size. The notch looks like its cut straight through when IMHO it should be wider on the muzzle side and a knife edge on the back side. This will give you a much clearer sight picture. Look at the photo of Taylor's rear sight. The 25 yr group need help, more load development or a clearer sight picture.

Offline Mule Brain

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #44 on: January 20, 2021, 11:03:21 PM »
I don't know if fixing your rear sight notch will change your points of impact much but it could help in group size. The notch looks like its cut straight through when IMHO it should be wider on the muzzle side and a knife edge on the back side. This will give you a much clearer sight picture. Look at the photo of Taylor's rear sight. The 25 yr group need help, more load development or a clearer sight picture.

I have already corrected that, so now it's good

Shooting from the bench I also use a diopter, so I can see the rear sight clearly. That way I can repeat the shot nearly exactly every time.
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Offline little joe

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #45 on: January 22, 2021, 11:45:58 PM »
I hate  too bring this up but is your skill level where it should be. I have saw people who flintched the same every time and shot targets such as this.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #46 on: January 23, 2021, 04:25:26 AM »
With that in mind, little Joe, as you say, it is common for right handed shooters who flinch at shooting, to shoot larger than normal
groups, to the right.(& usually low, as well) However, since the shooter is shooting from a rest, perhaps flinching is not a reason for
the extra large groups or the impact location, but it is something to ponder.
This is a 50 yard group with less than ultimate components, fired at 50yards off a rest and indeed, one shot was indeed, a flinch.
Flinching is something I have to be aware of, every shot I take with that rifle, no matter the load.
rifle .69  - undersized .662" RB with 2 6 ounce denim patches I measured at .017".
Right handed shooters usually flinch by "pulling" the shot to the right, left hand shooters pulling to the left.


« Last Edit: January 28, 2021, 10:15:34 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

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Offline smylee grouch

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #47 on: January 23, 2021, 05:38:51 AM »
Daryl,s target photo and explanation underscores the reason to shoot more than a 3 shot group when working up loads and/or sighting in. Flinches, flyers , or other unknown reasons happen and make what would then be a 2 shot group less convincing.

Offline Daryl

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #48 on: January 23, 2021, 10:14:04 PM »
Got it out to the range again, and insured the sights were exactly centered

What they did may have helped a little. Shot from bench at 25yds 60 grains of fff, .490 round ball with .20 denim patch.

I am concerned that the barrel may need bent so much, that it may effect the stock.

I sent this info to them, and await their reply.
 


I am assuming the low shot on the target to the right, was a flinch and that the 5 shots in the group are indeed, where the gun is currently shooting, with the sights centered.
It is a fairly large group for 25 yards though, which is interesting.
Daryl

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Offline Mule Brain

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Re: Got The Rifle To Group, However Exhausted Sight Adjustment
« Reply #49 on: January 28, 2021, 06:53:50 PM »
I did what Kudu advised and bent the barrel as he suggested. At this point, I have nothing to lose.

After my bench barrel torture, I can see a slight bend in it now. I will range test it on Sunday, and report back. The barrel went back into the stock with no issues. If I bent it too far, I will bend it back some.

I used a set of calipers, and measured from the bench to the upper flat on the barrel. That way I could guage how much I went. From zero to ten, it's now right in the middle.     
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