Smooth-Rifle

[MuskratMike]

I am in the early stages of acquiring a smooth rifle and have a few questions. I went back and read the old threads on this topic and found some think they never existed and were just rifles that were bored out smooth. I don't buy this at all if only for the reason if you look at Kindig's "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in it's Golden Age" and other books just like it there are so many beautiful examples in original near perfect condition that are smooth and have rear sights in rifle configurations and geometry that alone would debunk that logic. Sure the old barrels were softer and did wear faster but not to the extent that this many examples would still exist. So to my questions:
What era did these exist mostly?
What geographic area or school of gunsmithing did they mostly come from?
Were most originally built as flint or percussion?
What caliber (or gauge if you must) were most made in?
What do you suppose (just everyone's guess here) that they were mostly used for and by whom?
As they are in a rifle form do you suppose the barrels were octagon, octagon to round or just round and what the normal length would have been?
A little help here please.

[Kevin]

Greetings Muskrat Mike,

I just pulled "Selected Articles from the KRA Bulletin (Volume 1 - 30)" off a bookshelf.  A 1995 article by George Shumway titled "Consider The Smooth Rifle" cites the Christian Spring gunshop records, in the 1760s and 1770s as using the germanic terms for rifle, smoothbore gun, and smooth rifle in the inventories.

The author also states, "The relative number of true rifles, smooth rifles, and long fowlers that have survived from the fiintlock and percussion periods leave no doubt that smooth rifles were very popular."  He goes on to indicates that, "More than half of the "rifles" illustrated in Kindig's book are smooth rifles."

Sound like they were produced over a long span of time by a wide variety of the gunsmiths represented in the Kindig book.

I look forward to following this thread.

Kevin

[MuskratMike]

As do I Kevin, as do I. Thank you and Merry Christmas.

[rich pierce]

A few observations to consider:

Very few guns with double set triggers are now found to be smoothbores. If turning rifles into smoothbores was common practice and accounts for many/most of what we call smooth rifles, this is perplexing.

Guns now appearing as smooth rifles are more common from makers in some areas than others. Bucks County, Lehigh, Berks more common than many other areas.

It’s a fair bit of work to turn a rifle into a smoothbore. Drill it out and ream it. I’ve freshed a good number of barrels now and I’m not sure whether drilling and reaming would be easier than cleaning up the rifling.

However, reasoning (even my own) isn’t as convincing to me as hard data. We see dozens of freshing rods in old gunsmith shops. It’s clear from that and gunsmith log books that freshing rifling was a common task. One might expect that logs of drilling and reaming rifles to smoothbore would also be prevalent in account books if common practice.


Much of the thought that rifles now appearing as smooth rifles were rifled, but later drilled and reamed smooth seems based in people’s personal preferences for rifles.

A good many Civil War rifled muskets were sporterized and bored smooth and sold to civilians. That practice may reflect something common at that time, or just something easy to do with a musket with shallow rifling to turn it into a 24 ga shotgun.

[Brokennock]

I'm looking forward to learning from how this thread unfolds.
Thank you to the o.p. for posting it
My own feeling is that the theory that most smooth rifles started out with rifling is wrong. It just doesn't make sense to me. Some bored out smooth once the rifling was too worn to be of use? Sure, maybe. But, most or all, no.

I am sure I am incorrect but somewhere along the way I have picked up the notion that smoothrifles were more likely to have octagon to round barrels, rifles mostly full octagon with some octagon to round, and fowling pieces and muskets having full round barrels. But, I don't have access to books like RoCA and such. What us represented there for barrel profiles?

[rich pierce]

There are a great many smooth rifles with full octagon barrels.

Does anyone know of a Bucks County rifles. They are all smooth rifle-built gun with rifling?

[Daryl]

I just spent some time in "Firearms of the American West 1803-1865" looking for the reprinted order from J. Albright, I think it was, to Leman or Deringer of Philadelphia, for a bunch of guns, some of which were "smooth of bore with rifle sights" as well as rifles and shotguns having verious weights and lengths of bl. I could not find, it and gave up. Good book, though. I did end up reading a bunch of it, again.

[alacran]

It seems simple to me a smooth bore with a rear sight is more than adequate for taking game with round ball. Being smooth it would also be more than adequate for shooting rabbits and birds. A 38 inch barreled smooth rifle like the Issac Haines pictured in RCA volume 1, Would be a very handy gun.

[utseabee]

    I personally believe that there were probably more smoothbores built that regular rifles. I don't have any hard facts to support that, but in reading and going to the shows, that's what I have seen. After hunting with a Lehigh rifle build gun, I find myself always going for the smoothbore  over the rifles that I have. They are definitely effective and fun to shoot. Mine has a 44" Rice swamped .58 smooth barrel and it consistently shoots under 3" at 50 yards, usually better if I do my part. My load is 90 gr Goex 2F with a .560 ball and a .020 patch with Lehigh Valley Lube. I have attached a few pictures of a Henry Albright smoothbore with rifle sights.

[utseabee]

I am in the early stages of acquiring a smooth rifle and have a few questions. I went back and read the old threads on this topic and found some think they never existed and were just rifles that were bored out smooth. I don't buy this at all if only for the reason if you look at Kindig's "Thoughts on the Kentucky Rifle in it's Golden Age" and other books just like it there are so many beautiful examples in original near perfect condition that are smooth and have rear sights in rifle configurations and geometry that alone would debunk that logic. Sure the old barrels were softer and did wear faster but not to the extent that this many examples would still exist. So to my questions:
What era did these exist mostly?
What geographic area or school of gunsmithing did they mostly come from?
Were most originally built as flint or percussion?
What caliber (or gauge if you must) were most made in?
What do you suppose (just everyone's guess here) that they were mostly used for and by whom?
As they are in a rifle form do you suppose the barrels were octagon, octagon to round or just round and what the normal length would have been?
A little help here please.

    Nicholas Beyer seemed to make a good many smooth rifles. He had a a lot of oct to round barrels and some full oct. On the two Beyers that I have the barrels are about 44" and 48". I think he seemed to favor the longer barrels. Both of these rifles are flintlock. One appears to be 52-54 cal and the other is around 60. I will try and get you some pictures of the two Beyers later today.

[Kevin]

 One appears to be 52-54 cal and the other is around 60.

This range of calibers (52 - 60) takes in a lot of the smooth rifles and Pennsylvania built fowlers described in various books on my bookshelf.  Any choice in this range would be historically correct.

Kevin

[hanshi]

Though not necessarily a "smooth rifle" per se, my smoothbore has rifle sights and shoots really well at 50 yds and a little beyond.  I feed it mostly round ball, in fact.

[Daryl]

I've been led to believe that if a smoothbore has both front and rear sights, then it is actually a smooth rifle.

[redheart]

If a gun has a front and rear sight and no rifling, how could you ever to be able to prove that it wasn't originally a rifle?

[Not English]

Daryl, I tend to agree. I would add that the trigger guard also has a bearing. I don't know if I have seen a smooth rifle without a rifle style trigger guard.

[alacran]

Putting a rear sight on a Fusil Fin, does not make it a smooth rifle.
 I believe a smooth rifle is a gun that outwardly looks like a rifle, but it is smooth bored. Look at Issac Haines guns for examples. Also there is one Bavarian Jaeger in Shumways Muzzle Blasts compilation that is outwardly a rifle but it is smooth bored, if I remember correctly it has a 42 inch barrel. There are many other examples.

[Brokennock]

I've been led to believe that if a smoothbore has both front and rear sights, then it is actually a smooth rifle.

Wouldn't this make a Type-G, or "Carolina gun," a smoothrifle?

Pretty sure when we are talking smoothrifle we are talking stock architecture, rifle style trigger guard, as well as sights.

[Bob McBride]

If you walk past a guy and say “nice rifle”, and he replies, “She’s a smooth rifle”, and you say back, “Well durn, it looks in all aspects like a rifle”, and he says “yep”, and then you let out an astonished whistle, then that’s a smooth rifle.....

[Daryl]

Yes - I see your points on the design. As I think back on those order letters in the book from the shops "Out West", the smooth rifle orders were with the rifle orders, not with the shotguns. 3 dozen guns with sights, barrels 3 1/2 to 4 foot, rifled 53 to 32 to the pound. 1 dozen smooth with sights - or something very close to that. Wish I could find it???

[Daryl]

In looking again, I found one note on of the smooth rifle notations.
on page 267: notes by Henry Boller- around 1858, a note to his father (back East) from the Upper Missouri
after several months:

"a gun according to the following description. It is the proper kind of gun for this country. A light, double-barreled gun -- barrel 26" in length'
small caliber, to carry accurately the trade (or half-ounce) ball. (.52-.54cal. - my note). We don't use much shot up here, but a gun of this kind
shoots either ball or shot well. Rifle Stocked (wood of black walnut, greased,not varnished)  with a large breech box, easily opened; 2 sights
on the barrel like a rifle, plain & to catch a quick sight through; locks of the best, and most substantial kind; 2 extra nipples. The gun to be light
and strong, and mounted with brass. Such a gun is handy and useful, on horse or on foot."

Sry- still  cannot find the gun "order" I was looking for.

[smokinbuck]

Mike,
I have an original "smooth rifle" by Christian Seibert. It's about 28 GA with front and rear sights, single trigger and rifle type architecture and hardware. This one is in excellent shootable condition.

[MuskratMike]

Smokinbuck: any chance you could post some pictures of it. I would love to see them.

[Kevin]

Hello Again,

In "Rifles of the American Indians" by Gale, Ness, & Mikelson there is a circa 1816 smooth rifle by Henry Deringer detailed on pages 105 - 110.  They report that the U.S. Office of Indian Trade, in 1816, ordered 60 smooth rifles but they were not popular among Indians.  This was reportedly the government's only order for them.

Also, James Henry, in 1840, attempted to get the American Fur Company to purchase smooth bored rifles but they declined citing that they could not be used in the Indian Trade.

Kevin