Halfstock Flintlock Hawkens?

[Magungo1066]

I already consulted my flintlock guru, and he, very logically, believes that there were no half stock, flintlock hawkens...But for the sake of discussion and fun, I have a few thoughts. My history nerd brain has the gears grinding...the percussion cap was slow to make itself out west. Many were hesitant until it was tried and proved by a considerable amount of plainsmen and settlers. I theorize that it is possible that some of their early halfstocks could have been flintlocks. Maybe rare and few and far between, but still. Who knows? The Hawken brothers were a custom shop. A lot of those companies would basically give in to what you wanted provided you had the coin. What does everyone think?

[flinchrocket]

I can't see any reason why they would not have made a half stock flintlock. Just because we have never seen one doesn't proof anything.

[Magungo1066]

My thoughts exactly...guns are weird... a lot of unique stuff pops up.

[MuskratMike]

Sam & Jake were some of the earliest proponents of the percussion lock. However the clientele in St. Louis was not so quick to jump on board. Caps were not readily available until the late 1820's to early 1830's. The Rocky Mountain fur trade was well under way by then. I believe some half stock early Sam and Jake built rifles were flintlocks. most were used up or converted to cap lock later. They were used hard that is why so few real Hawken's are still around.

[Daniel Coats]

I believe the simplest and most plausible reason there are no Hawken half stock flintlocks today is there never were any to begin with. Well someone had to say it.

[MuskratMike]

Sam & Jake didn't really get started in St. Louis until 1825 about the same year caps became widely available. Not all believed in this new system and clung to their flintlocks in the mountains for many years after. It will all be guess work and conjecture but it only makes sense that there were flintlocks made in their shop after 1825. Can't prove it but it can't be disproved either! There now I said it.

[Hungry Horse]

 My thought has always been that the half stocked Hawken rifles grew out of the liquidation in St. Louis of the guns from the Lewis and Clark expedition, and the sales of surplus, and rejected, 1803 pattern Harpers Ferry rifles there as well. We know the Corp of discovery gun were sold in St Louis, and they were flint, so why would a new made flint, half stock, rifle, be such a big step.

 Hungry Horse

[Dennis Glazener]

Guys,
Please do not get into discussions of Sharps rifles, they do not fit into ALR rules.

Bulletin Boards

Please restrict your postings to topics compatible with the mission of this site to promote and support the study, building, and collecting of the American longrifle .

Allowable topics are:

1.  The building or recreation of custom side lock muzzle loading sporting arms that would have been made or used in North America, with the exception of mass produced military arms used in or after the American Civil War are not allowed.

2.  The study and collecting of custom side lock muzzle loading sporting arms as defined in item 1.

3.  The shooting of custom side lock muzzle loading sporting arms as defined in item 1.

4.  The historical and cultural setting for the manufacture and use of custom side lock muzzle loading sporting arms as defined in item 1.

Dennis

[Bob Roller]

Are there any existing Hawken rifles with locks obviously converted from flint to percussion??
Quite a number of long rifles have converted locks but in all the writings about Hawken in St.Louis
there are no mention of them with the possible exception of a fullstock in the Smithsonian in DC.
Bob Roller

[rich pierce]

A flintlock half stock J&S Hawken rifle made after percussion rifles were being made would have been an odd mix of the latest trend and old technology.

The “were ever” type questions are biased toward getting a “yes” answer from the get go. They only require one instance that nobody can prove could not have happened.

We all know there is no known early J&S Hawken halfstock that was clearly flintlock when made.


The “they would have made whatever the customer asked for” makes numerous assumptions. Here are some:

1) The gun shop was not booked with orders making guns for which they were all set up with parts, plans, and experience.
2) The gun shop could and would go out of their way to source parts and make plans for something one customer wanted.
3) A customer existed with an idea he could not let go of. He had to have something unavailable.
4) Nobody else was making anything close to what the customer wanted.

[Magungo1066]

A flintlock half stock J&S Hawken rifle made after percussion rifles were being made would have been an odd mix of the latest trend and old technology.

The “were ever” type questions are biased toward getting a “yes” answer from the get go. They only require one instance that nobody can prove could not have happened.

We all know there is no known early J&S Hawken halfstock that was clearly flintlock when made.


The “they would have made whatever the customer asked for” makes numerous assumptions. Here are some:

1) The gun shop was not booked with orders making guns for which they were all set up with parts, plans, and experience.
2) The gun shop could and would go out of their way to source parts and make plans for something one customer wanted.
3) A customer existed with an idea he could not let go of. He had to have something unavailable.
4) Nobody else was making anything close to what the customer wanted.

Well said Rich

[flinchrocket]

If you go to the Cody Firearms Museum you will see that there is a lot of variation in Hawken rifles. They have one with a flintlock plate converted to percussion. It will give you a different perspective on what could have been!
You used to be able to view them online. However, since the Smithsonian took over that ended.

[Daryl]

So! Maybe, maybe not. This does come up, now and then.

[Dave Marsh]

[redheart]

We've been down this road many times and always end up in the same place. No proof of a flint halfstock plains rifle style Hawken. Some folks just like being controversial and that's fun for them. I've seen a couple of Hawken Plains Rifles that guys had altered to flintlock and it just looks weird to me, but that may only be because perhaps in the back of my mind an alarm goes off telling me that there was no such thing, even though it's remotely possible that there was. So for me it kind of kills the feeling of time travel at reenactment and Rendezvous. I think If I wanted this type of rifle I'd build one of the very late English half stock flint rifles, at least I know that they existed. I know I'm just a nobody and I'm o.k. with that, but at least it's another opinion.

[okieboy]

 I suppose everyone (myself included) indulges their selves in speculation; but..I don't think that you can create 17th century history with 21st century logic.

[flinchrocket]

Are there any existing Hawken rifles with locks obviously converted from flint to percussion??
Quite a number of long rifles have converted locks but in all the writings about Hawken in St.Louis
there are no mention of them with the possible exception of a fullstock in the Smithsonian in DC.
Bob Roller

The one you mentioned-  Smithsonian
                                    The one in Cody Firearms Museum
                                    And one at College of the Ozarks in Point Lookout, MO.

[Dennis Glazener]

I saw no mention of a Sharps, why the warning?

  Hungry Horse

It has been removed.
Dennis

[Clark Badgett]

Are there any existing Hawken rifles with locks obviously converted from flint to percussion??
Quite a number of long rifles have converted locks but in all the writings about Hawken in St.Louis
there are no mention of them with the possible exception of a fullstock in the Smithsonian in DC.
Bob Roller

The one you mentioned-  Smithsonian
                                    The one in Cody Firearms Museum
                                    And one at College of the Ozarks in Point Lookout, MO.

I do believe that those were made percussion from old converted flint locks. Not made as flint rifles and then converted. This really is a subject that has been covered many times and at least once those very locks were illustrated. If you want a flintlock Hawken, then by all means have one made as such and just let it be a fantasy rifle that looks nice, just please don't try to pass it off as anything that has been able to have been documented. Rich stated it quite well up thread.