Author Topic: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)  (Read 13296 times)

eagle24

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Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« on: August 28, 2009, 05:53:46 PM »
I wasn't going to post any pics until I got finished, but I made these the other night for a couple of guys to critique my work (or mess) and thought "what the heck" might as well put them on the board.  I would like to hear any input or criticism (which I will take as constructive and put to good use on the next rifle).  She's a little longer in the wrist than I would have designed, but I had no choice with the stock I used.  I'll spare all the details.

I'm still working on the stock around the lock area, tang, and have not rounded the upper 1/3 of the stock fully into the barrel inlet.  Also, the metal parts are in various stages of my aging process.










Offline TPH

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #1 on: August 28, 2009, 07:36:17 PM »
Very nice work.
T.P. Hern

Online rich pierce

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #2 on: August 28, 2009, 07:52:20 PM »
Looking mighty clean; nice architecture.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Bill of the 45th

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #3 on: August 28, 2009, 08:09:19 PM »
I like the entry pipe, and quite nice fit all over.  My only comment would be to take off more wood, and narrow the toe plate, all the way to the trigger guard, and some from behind the lock panel.  Looks too much like a precarve.  I like the long wrist, I think they make them look delicate when they're that slim, that's just what I like, and thank goodness you know to use an English lick.  All in all, it's gonna look sweet.  Question is the rear tang screw, just a screw, or a bolt thru to the trigger for extra strength?

Bill
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eagle24

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #4 on: August 28, 2009, 08:21:38 PM »
I like the entry pipe, and quite nice fit all over.  My only comment would be to take off more wood, and narrow the toe plate, all the way to the trigger guard, and some from behind the lock panel.  Looks too much like a precarve.  I like the long wrist, I think they make them look delicate when they're that slim, that's just what I like, and thank goodness you know to use an English lick.  All in all, it's gonna look sweet.  Question is the rear tang screw, just a screw, or a bolt thru to the trigger for extra strength?

Bill

Bill,  The pictures may be a little deceiving on the toe plate.  The lines along the bottom of the stock taper from the toe forward and it is pretty narrow.  Looks much wider in the picture than it actually is.  The tangs on the trigger guard are very narrow which make it look wider in that area as well.  Behind the lock panels?  are you talking about shortening the back of the lock panels?

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #5 on: August 28, 2009, 08:23:44 PM »
Is that rear pipe taken from an original So rifle?

How in the world did you keep her so @!*% clean?  At that point mine would have a mixture of black, sweat, metal filings and blood (mostly mine) and God only knows what else smeared on her...!   ??? ::)

roundball

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #6 on: August 28, 2009, 08:32:44 PM »
How in the world did you keep her so @!*% clean?  At that point mine would have a mixture of black, sweat, metal filings and blood (mostly mine) and God only knows what else smeared on her...!   ??? ::)

 ;D had a similar thought...looks pristine

eagle24

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #7 on: August 28, 2009, 08:41:48 PM »
Is that rear pipe taken from an original So rifle?

How in the world did you keep her so @!*% clean?  At that point mine would have a mixture of black, sweat, metal filings and blood (mostly mine) and God only knows what else smeared on her...!   ??? ::)

It was pretty nasty before I removed everything and did some sanding to get the stock cleaned up.  I'm using homebrewed aqua fortis stain and figured I needed to keep all the metal filings out of the wood, so I have been pretty carefull to try and keep her clean the last week or so.

On the entry pipe/wear plate?  No, it is not really from an original.  She got very thin beneath the RR hole so I came up with the wear plate idea.  The plate is inlet about 80% depth and will be pinned with iron pins.  I forged it out of a piece of metal from an old car and did not file all the hammer marks out of it.

Offline G-Man

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #8 on: August 28, 2009, 09:43:23 PM »
Greg - the rifle is looking really nice.  

No one has mentioned the guard - I really like that Bull style guard - did you make it or perhaps modify one of Dennis' guards?  Definitely does not look like any of the castings out there, so your gun will have a more unique look - that's nice to see.

I'd have to see it in 3-D, but I'd be tempted to keep the length at the back of the lock and sideplate panels. Otherwise, on some of these precarves the wrist ends up looking too long.  A lot of mountain rifles had relatively short, compact wrist areas, especially up into southwestern Virginia.

Guy
« Last Edit: August 28, 2009, 09:48:44 PM by Guy Montfort »

eagle24

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2009, 10:35:48 PM »
Greg - the rifle is looking really nice.  

No one has mentioned the guard - I really like that Bull style guard - did you make it or perhaps modify one of Dennis' guards?  Definitely does not look like any of the castings out there, so your gun will have a more unique look - that's nice to see.

I'd have to see it in 3-D, but I'd be tempted to keep the length at the back of the lock and sideplate panels. Otherwise, on some of these precarves the wrist ends up looking too long.  A lot of mountain rifles had relatively short, compact wrist areas, especially up into southwestern Virginia.

Guy


Thanks Guy.  The guard is forged and I do not know who made it.  Last year at the CLA show while standing in front of AL Rehdor's (spelling?) display of fabulous Lawing, Bean, Bull, Bogle iron mounted rifles, I met a fellow.  We were talking about trigger guards and he (out of the blue) said he had a forged trigger guard he would send me.  Wallah!  that would be it.  We have since stayed in contact and exchanged a few trade (gift) goods.  I sent him a Gillespie Trigger guard in the mail the other day that I was not going to use anytime soon for an Iron Mounted Southern Rifle he is building.

The precarve I used was ordered without any castoff.  However, when I got it this was not the case.  I cheated some of the castoff out of it, but was forced to move the nose of the comb back to get the comb back on the center line.  The result was a longer wrist than I wanted or would have designed.  Also, the wrist on the precarve was pretty thin to begin with which made the wrist thinner and "look" even longer.  I kind of agree with you on leaving the lock panels long in the back.  I sure don't want to make the wrist any longer than it already is.

This is my first rifle and will be my last from a precarve.  I learned a lot of "what not to do" building this one.

BTW.... I really appreciate the photos that you sent me of original rifles.  My next rifle will have a SW Virginia flavor to it if I don't change my mind.

Offline Frank Barker

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #10 on: August 29, 2009, 08:48:06 AM »
Greg........That is going to be an awful nice gun for a first try. I like the long breech tang and the unique entry thimble. Did you make the thimble or purchase it some where ? Don't recall ever seeing one like that. Where did you get the pre-carved stock ? Thanks for sharing it with us........Frank

Colonial Riflesmith

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #11 on: August 29, 2009, 12:47:12 PM »
Nice work, I like the way you did the tang.

JMatley

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #12 on: August 29, 2009, 04:56:46 PM »
Greg – Let me start out by saying Thank You for posting the photos of your latest project.

I’m new to building ML and have been lurking around as a guest in this forum for months.  After viewing your photos I was compelled to finally register and post a response.

I’ve completed 2 cabella’s kit rifles with varying degrees of success and satisfaction.  I always considered these rifles “practice” pieces and finally decided to take the plunge and build my first Southern Mountain rifle this summer. 

I have plenty of patience but after 2 weeks on and off working on the buttplate I was starting to feel a bit frustrated with my progress until I saw the pictures of your rifle.  Your rifle is exactly what I vision in my mind as my finished project and gave me a boost to get back in there and keep plugging away.  Thanks for the inspiration.  If my finished rifle ends up looking anything like yours then I’ll feel the effort was totally worthwhile.

Looking forward to seeing the finished project.

Jim

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #13 on: August 29, 2009, 05:13:48 PM »
Nice work. I like the wood-metal fits.
It is good that we have so may people doing quality work.

But some of the parts have corrosion. Couldn't resist ;D

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #14 on: August 29, 2009, 05:15:42 PM »
Another thing.
I ALWAYS have something about a gun I don't like. Some little mistake, omission or miscalculation.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

eagle24

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2009, 06:05:01 PM »
But some of the parts have corrosion. Couldn't resist ;D

Dan,
I feel pretty good if you just penalize me for corrosion.  We all know how you feel about corrosion. ;D  Thanks for the kind words.  The pictures hide a lot of short comings, but I feel like I have a pretty good feel for what they are and will (hopefully) do better on #2.

You know it's funny.  I felt pretty good about my rifle (especially for a first attempt) until I went to the CLA Show and saw some real talent.  Same goes for many of the builders on here and the work they post.  There are Major League builders and then there are guys like me that are still playing Tee Ball.

Jim,  Thanks.  Check out the contemporary blog http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/ there are several southern rifles on there by really talented builders that know what they are doing.  That's what you want to shoot for.  
« Last Edit: August 29, 2009, 06:09:09 PM by GHall »

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2009, 01:20:16 AM »
It's really hard to tell, but it looks like there is a flat ahead of the forward extension of the guard, where the blend between the grip and the lock areas are. I think the roundness of the grip could be brought back farther into this area and get some of that flat area out.

That is going to be a really nice slickety rifle. Keep up the good work.

Tom
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Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2009, 05:20:33 AM »
Greg, looks good man. It does look from the pictures like there may be a bit of a flat spot like Tom was saying. I know a bunch of Tennessee rifles were basically flat across underneath the panels, a lot of that is often due to use of a smaller size lock and sometimes having wider panels to boot. Hard to get the"flat area" to look right without going all out, the way yours looks you could easily feather that spot out into the forend and make everything happy.

 Dan, a mountain gun with no rust on it would be like a cake with no frosting on it. I don't eat cake myself but surely anybody can appreciate the comparison.

Birddog6

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2009, 05:30:30 AM »
Greg,

  As I told you this morning, I think it really looks good.  I don't think you should have your wife clean it every morning so it stays so clean   ::), but otherwise it looks really nice.  I look forward to seeing it in-hand & going over the build with you.   ;) 

Keep up the good work.  :)

Keith

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2009, 05:34:09 AM »
Quote
I don't eat cake myself but I do eats a bit of groundhog once in a while. Did I say that, or is someone messin' with me?


Here is a round forestock blending into the lock panel area. There is no flat between the panels, but rounded off down to the panels. The highest spot is a line running from the guard all the way to the entry pipe. Does this help?

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Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2009, 05:38:54 AM »
What did that guy put on that trigger guard to turn it yellow like that? Should have used whatever he put on the frizzen spring.
 Tom you haven't lived until you've seen a rifle with a flat underbelly

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2009, 05:19:02 PM »
Mr. Pratt, I ain't ever seen a flat underbelly on a So. Mt. gun, but I am sure willing to look. To be serious for a couple of seconds, my experience has been very limited with this type of rifle. I must say seeing your work and that of Ken Guy has brought a lot of appreciation to my experience. There are many subtleties in your work that were not in my gun vocabulary before.

Tom
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eagle24

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2009, 03:01:40 AM »
Greg,

  As I told you this morning, I think it really looks good.  I don't think you should have your wife clean it every morning so it stays so clean   ::), but otherwise it looks really nice.  I look forward to seeing it in-hand & going over the build with you.   ;) 

Keep up the good work.  :)

Keith

You mean you can do that?  Make the wife clean your rifle every morning?  Dang...I've been married 24 years and didn't know. :o

I will give you a holler when I am done Keith.  I would love to drive over to your place and let you see it and give me some pointers.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2009, 08:46:57 AM »
Greg, looks good man. It does look from the pictures like there may be a bit of a flat spot like Tom was saying. I know a bunch of Tennessee rifles were basically flat across underneath the panels, a lot of that is often due to use of a smaller size lock and sometimes having wider panels to boot. Hard to get the"flat area" to look right without going all out, the way yours looks you could easily feather that spot out into the forend and make everything happy.

 Dan, a mountain gun with no rust on it would be like a cake with no frosting on it. I don't eat cake myself but surely anybody can appreciate the comparison.

Unless they heat blued the steel then oiled and heated to smoke off or burn off the oil.
A friend of mine was looking at a semi-auto pistol at the local gun store a year or so ago. One of those with all the edges rounded. The guy behind to counter was talking about it being "snag free". My friend was not interested. He said something to the effect that he had spent too much time polishing parts to keep the edges sharp to buy something like that.
I can't make a nice part then screw it up. I just can't. I KNOW why people do it but I won't.

Then....Most people who do this don't take the time to STUDY worn guns either and thus the antiquing is not right for a used gun. They look abused not used.
To be right the gun must be made and finished as *new* THEN the selected wear added. Most miss the crucial "new finish" step and then make the whole gun uniformly "beat".
Look a this Hawken.

THIS is a used gun, now much worse off for pitting I am sure than it was when it went out of service 140 or more years ago. Probably saw more miles in use than any of the rifles we make.





There is no uniform damage to the metal finish. It has some pitting but not much, look at the lock plate, TG and the metal of the forend. Wear yes but its not etched/pitted/rusted everywhere.

The lack of understanding of how a gun would actually wear if used is where the guns become antiqued rather than used.

So rather than rust the gun NOW as its being built, Greg needs to *finish it* to new *then* abrade the surface selectively. Where will it get the most wear? Look at the Hawken photos and think about it. But its a horse gun and the wear will be different than a long rifle carried afoot.
There will be places with all or nearly all the finish and some with none... You cannot make a TG look worn just by rusting it or especially by etching the whole thing with acid or Chlorox.

Said too much again. ::)

Dan
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Offline Chuck Burrows

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Re: Iron Mounted Southern Rifle (Pics)
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2009, 10:40:10 AM »
Quote
To be right the gun must be made and finished as *new* THEN the selected wear added. Most miss the crucial "new finish" step
Hey Dan we actually agree on this!  ;D

Quote
look at the lock plate, TG and the metal of the forend. Wear yes but its not etched/pitted/rusted everywhere.
the lack of pitting is most likely due to the fact these parts were originally case hardened whihc helps prevent wear and pitting - it's one of those "details" that make all the difference and caseing those parts on a Hawken repro is something seldom done these days........
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And that has made all the difference.