Sell me on the idea of a smooth rifle

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Creating an argument to convince you to make/buy a smooth rifle would be a futile waste of time.  You either want one, or you don't.  If you are frustrated shooting a compound bow, I'm not going to be able to convince you that shooting a longbow will be more rewarding, as an analogy.
I myself am going to build one for myself.  I have a .50 cal smooth barrel 50" long by Getz inlet into a solid piece of cherry by Mark Weder, and the rifle will be in the JP Beck style, with rifle hardware from Dave Keck, and a four piece brass patchbox in Beck's style.  Since it is for me, I may even install double set triggers!

[BarryE]

I have found the smooth rifle has become my go to hunting choice.  It is light and handy even though it sports a 45.5” barrel. It has range limitations that force me to be more thoughtful in my efforts.  Fifty yard 3-4” round ball accuracy is possible with some (maybe a lot of) range work.  Shot loads require much the same effort. My rifle is good to about 30 yards with #6 shot.  It is cylinder bore.  I would not use anything less than 20 gauge if turkeys are involved.

[Dphariss]

A smooth bore with a rifle sized bore, remembering that most rifles were 44-50 cal circa the American Revolution, is basically useless.
I built a 50 caliber rifle with a SB and a rifled barrel, same sights etc. The smooth bore barrel was too small in the bore for shot and would not pattern well enough for me to shoot small game at 20-25 yards and would not shoot a RB well enough to kill squirrels reliably at that distance. At 50 yards or so it would shoot 5 shots into 4-4.5" but it took 110 grains of powder to get this tight. It liked 480 ball and a heavy patch best.
Also remember that the shot back in the day, before shot towers were invented and common was not even round so the patterns we get today are going to be better than they would have been in the 18th c.
So as I always do I gave up on smoothbores, again. It was seriously at a disadvantage compared to the rifled barrel no matter what it might be used for. For the life of me back in the day I can't understand a rifle stocked smoothbore or any under 20 bore. And a 20 bore rifle was very rare from all historical accounts.  I often wonder if some of these smooth rifles were just for show.
YMMV.
Dan

[R.J.Bruce]

I think small diameter smoothbore smoothrifles are going to be totally dependent upon the type of game that one has to hunt. As well as the time, and effort that a shooter is willing to spend in order to get REALLY good with shot, as opposed to patched balls.

There is a man over in England that posts on The Muzzleloading Forum, aka Britsmoothy. He is forbidden by law to shoot bore sized patched ball out of a rifled, or smooth bore. He shoots, among other guns, an Italian, .45 caliber, smoothrifle import that looks much like a DGW rifle. His loads are near 28 gauge in powder/shot proportions. His harvests of squirrels, rabbits, and pheasants are constant. Most of his shots are 35 yards, and closer. It is my belief that most Americans simply give short shrift to the use of shot in anything smaller than a 20 gauge. As you go down to the 24 gauge, and the 28 gauge, the numbers of people actually hunting year round with these bore sizes decreases radically. And people just dismiss the .50 & .45 caliber smoothbores altogether.

It is my belief that the small caliber smoothrifle's are far more capable than they are given credit for. After all, thousands of them existed well into the percussion era, and they couldn't have always been used with a patched ball.

[bob in the woods]

The best partridge gun I ever had was a 28 bore with a 38 in oct / round Long Hammock barrel.
That 28 shot superb patterns and handled like a dream.  I sold it to a lady who needed a firearm for use around her farm . It has served her well for 25 years and performs far beyond what you might expect. 

[Hungry Horse]

 Unless you are a hermit, that doesn’t compete in shooting events, and that just loves to hunt small game with a big heavy clunk of a smoothbore, don’t get a smooth rifle. They’re neither fish, nor fowl, and aren’t allowed in many shooting categories at muzzleloading events. You will have to prove that they aren’t a true rifle in some states to hunt big game. The same goes for state regulated small game. A rifle stocked smoothbore is going to be like riding a unicycle with clown shoes, if the gun is rifle stocked, and if it isn’t, what’s the point?
I would build a small gauge fowler of around 24, or 28 gauge. I find these gauges shoot fairly tight patterns, if you don’t try to build a modern shotgun shell inside the barrel with all the wads, and cards, and who knows what else. The shot strings are long, and you will have to adjust your shooting style to accommodate that, but that would be true with a smooth rifle as well.

  Hungry Horse

[Dphariss]

I think small diameter smoothbore smoothrifles are going to be totally dependent upon the type of game that one has to hunt. As well as the time, and effort that a shooter is willing to spend in order to get REALLY good with shot, as opposed to patched balls.

There is a man over in England that posts on The Muzzleloading Forum, aka Britsmoothy. He is forbidden by law to shoot bore sized patched ball out of a rifled, or smooth bore. He shoots, among other guns, an Italian, .45 caliber, smoothrifle import that looks much like a DGW rifle. His loads are near 28 gauge in powder/shot proportions. His harvests of squirrels, rabbits, and pheasants are constant. Most of his shots are 35 yards, and closer. It is my belief that most Americans simply give short shrift to the use of shot in anything smaller than a 20 gauge. As you go down to the 24 gauge, and the 28 gauge, the numbers of people actually hunting year round with these bore sizes decreases radically. And people just dismiss the .50 & .45 caliber smoothbores altogether.

It is my belief that the small caliber smoothrifle's are far more capable than they are given credit for. After all, thousands of them existed well into the percussion era, and they couldn't have always been used with a patched ball.

So start testing and give us the results. Everything else is just a guess.

And REMEMBER that the shot and wads available TODAY are not what was used in the 18th and early 19th c (cut shot, cut and tumbled or "tailed"shot dropped only a couple of feet into water) before true, round, shot tower shot was widely available if at all. If you look at the hoop jumping the British went through trying to get unchoked guns to pattern at longer ranges you will see its not all that easy even with a 12 bore.  I have gotten fairly useful patterns using a 20 gauge charge of shot from 66 twist 54 caliber pistol out to 15-17 yards or so (this was circa 1980). But why? I can hit small game with solid shot from a pistol at this distance and at 800-900 fps the damage in minimal, even on grouse. So why screw around with small shot and wads?
It never seems to occur to people that the reason for the smooth rifle might be that the owner could not see well enough to shoot a rifle. My grandfather started hunting squirrels with shotgun for this reason or so my father told me when he told me his dad was shooting squirrels with a shotgun and I asked why.
When you speak of all those thousands of small smooth rifles you have to carefully remember that for small game a small caliber rifle or even a 50 caliber is far more efficient and in the percussion era their were a great many rifles for every SB smooth rifle. Then we have cost of operation.  Look to the weight of powder and lead needed to kill a squirrel with even a 28 bore vs a 28-36 caliber rifle. Then we have the problem of wounded game if the range is a little too long squirrels are pretty tough critters. I shot grey squirrel once that had been shot through the lungs with a 22, probably a shot by the report I heard. It was still alive 10-15 minutes later setting on a limb when I head shot it with my ML.  A 350 RB is over 100 to the pound and will shoot accurately with 25-40 grains of powder which gives at least 175 shots to the pound. This is borne out by the TRADERS as early as the 1740s opposing selling rifles to the natives since is CUT INTO THEIR POWDER AND LEAD SALES PROFITS.
And as the Englishman's reported loads show the smaller bore shotguns were often over loaded. This is mentioned by WW Greener in regard to 28 bores.

Dan

[rich pierce]

Hungry Horse is 100% on the money. As probably said somewhere on page 1, the reasons to get a smooth rifle include wanting a new challenge and something different, wanting something common in the colonial and federal periods, and “now Barney can’t say he’s got one and I don’t.”

My original Lancaster smooth rifle is about 20 gauge. I’ll make a copy as soon as I get a wood model for the guard finished and castings made.

[Ezra]

I love smoothies.

Easier to clean
More versatile that rifles
You have a built in excuse if you miss...

Ez

[WKevinD]

I (we) have been shooting smooth bores for years. We jave our "special needs" hunting camp for the past thirty years.
We have all killed.lots of deer and turkey so we have nothing to prove. We each have our special needs limitations, missing limbs, bad hearts, the big C ang old age but we choose to use flint, smooth only. We have more excuses why we missed or how it was too far and more laughs at camp and it is more satisfying when we are successful.
I know this is not a convincer but it's the truth.
Kevin

[oldtravler61]

  It all boils down to what YOU want. Nothing more nothing less.
A long time ago at our yearly get together. We had a Canadian fellow . That came down to our rendezvous. Wayne shoot nothing but a Smooth bore rifle.
 Every one dreaded when he showed up. Especially all the hot shot rifle guy's. He would always end up in first or second place. Didn't matter if it was woods walk, clang the gong or line match. Wayne made many shooters walk away shaking their heads.
If you take time to get good with it. Ya might be impressed how accurate they are...
  Oldtravler

[Stoner creek]

  It all boils down to what YOU want. Nothing more nothing less.
A long time ago at our yearly get together. We had a Canadian fellow . That came down to our rendezvous. Wayne shoot nothing but a Smooth bore rifle.
 Every one dreaded when he showed up. Especially all the hot shot rifle guy's. He would always end up in first or second place. Didn't matter if it was woods walk, clang the gong or line match. Wayne made many shooters walk away shaking their heads.
If you take time to get good with it. Ya might be impressed how accurate they are...
  Oldtravler

People named Wayne are naturally great shooters......... Don't matter what kind of gun it is......

[Hungry Horse]

 The mention of being taken to the wood shed by a Canadian shooter reminds me of the first time a bunch of us Californians went to the “Frog Holler” Rendezvous. We had never encountered the dreaded Canadians with their tradeguns before. In fact tradeguns were a pretty rare item in California at that time. Those rifle shooters that were pretty hot stuff back home, hated being wupped by a feriner with a shotgun. Some of those Canadian shooters outshot most of the rifle shooters with their tradeguns. Some of our guys even asked to examine those smoothbores, just to make sure they were’nt rifled down bore somewhere. The trick turned out to be that most of them only shot tradegun, and shot them a lot. They also tried every conceivable load imaginable in them, and found what worked best for them. I think we saw every conceivable combination when it came to paper cartridge, and bare ball, loads. A few shot patched round ball, but not many.
 Like a lot of others, I came home and scrounged up the parts to build my first tradegun.

  Hungry Horse

[oldtravler61]

  That old saying. "  Fear the man with one gun.  No doubt he knows how to use it " My Grandfather an Dad were always reminding me of that quote..  Funny they never mentioned anything about them thar people named Wayne....lol. 

[Daryl]

My hunting buddy Brad now passed on, went to Frog Holler a few times - late 70's I expect.
He always talked about it quite fondly.

[Dphariss]

Every time I here of hearing of smoothbore out shooting rifle shooters I think of two things. 1. How big are the targets?  2. The very old saying that shooting off hand "is a poor test of a rifle". The reason that until in the 19th c few rifle matches were shot offhand.
They shot from a rest. Shooting from a rest at 60 yards closest to center a SB has no chance. Shooting a 6-10 MOA steel plate (12" plate at 50 yards is  +- 6 MOA) is a far different deal.
I also remember the account in the Warner-Lowe papers of Kendall scratch rifling a barrel with course emery and going to a SB only turkey shoot. If I were shooting a SB in matches and REALLY wanted to win I would scratch rifle it as Kendall did.
The "more versatile" thing is a myth... Shotguns in reality are limited use weapons and always have been. Yes they can be used for many things  but they really on only do well shooting small shot at close range. Though there were large bore rifles made in Europe until the advent of the metallic cartridges that unless loaded very light were not as accurate as a SB.
Cost more to shoot at small game that a rifle and in the real world of 1770-1830 were less effective in self-defense and hunting. ESPECIALLY if the people you were fighting were armed with rifles as many Eastern Natives were according to "British Military Flintlock Rifles" by Bailey where we see significant numbers of rifles in use by the 1740s in PA.
The target below is from one of the "Turkey" matches a friend used to run in Wyoming. The is 12-14 shots, sighters and score shots at 60 yards, plank rest barrel is a heavy McLemore 50 caliber. Usually there was more wind "problems" but I had a good day.
I used the sighter target, I then stapled the score targets over it to get a composite. String measure for 10 shots was 4.186 IIRC. I put one out 2". Wind or me dunno which.

Dan

[FALout]

It’s not whether to get a rifle or smooth bore, but what kind of smooth bore!

[Jerry]

I am trying to come up with an idea for a new rifle. I have never had a fowler or a smooth rifle. Looking for what it is about them that people really like? Is it the RB or shot versatility? Is it hard to come up with a shot load? If you use it to hunt turkey, do you need a specialty choked type barrel to be effective? Would a 58 cal smooth be a good turkey gun?  What kind of RB accuracy can I expect at say 50 yds? Any info you can enlighten me with will be appreciated. I am kind of by myself with this hobby down here where I live in Ar., but I have been fooling with this stuff for a long time now.

this is three shots at 25 yds. with a smoothbore. Jerry

[Daryl]

I’ve got a 1” octagon 20 gauge barrel 32” long that won’t shoot round ball into 6” at 35 yards. And my 46”, oct to round thin walled .69 will shoot into 3” or 4” at 50 yards. Accuracy in smoothbores is witchcraft.

Rich, ii should have read your post before typing mine. SPOT- ON.

[JCKelly]

This .53 cal. Deringer was likely made for the Indian trade. Some early 18th century guy, whatever race, was apparently happy enuff with it.







Barrel markings similar to those on p. 155,  Firearms in Colonial America. Likely made under Gov’t contract  for the Indian Trade. Eight  engraved "snowflakes". Breech engraved with triangular marks, not shown here.

[rich pierce]

Heck of a gun.