Sell me on the idea of a smooth rifle

[brokenhand]

I am trying to come up with an idea for a new rifle. I have never had a fowler or a smooth rifle. Looking for what it is about them that people really like? Is it the RB or shot versatility? Is it hard to come up with a shot load? If you use it to hunt turkey, do you need a specialty choked type barrel to be effective? Would a 58 cal smooth be a good turkey gun?  What kind of RB accuracy can I expect at say 50 yds? Any info you can enlighten me with will be appreciated. I am kind of by myself with this hobby down here where I live in Ar., but I have been fooling with this stuff for a long time now.

[Daryl]

I'll give it a try.
Shot can be trying, in a cylinder bore. Generally a square load, same measure for powder as shot - stricken measure.
If changing, then more shot than powder - stricken.
Takes a lot of pattern work, sometimes. Some have best luck with using thin, overshot wads between powder and shot, then
one over the shot. Heavy wads between shot and powder oft times blows the pattern due to muzzle blast blowing the wad through the
shot cloud, making donut shaped patterns.
Round ball accuracy at 50 yards can be from (in my experience) about 3" to 10", depending on the gun and load - experimentation is needed,
 sometimes years of it. I still havn't found a good 50 yard and further load for my 20 bore - had it since about 2006. Lots of guys have better
luck than I have experienced (it sounds like, anyway).  The gun that shot 3" for me, was the one Taylor owns - a 20 bore Pennsylvania flower.
I know of another Penn. fowler that seems to shoot just as well - maybe better. That fellow uses a .595" ball, .020" ticking patch and 85gr. 3F.
He doesn't have to wipe at any time during a day's shooting. None of us do as we all use tight combinations (up here in the bush).
I have seen some decent shooting at gongs, with a 24 bore (.58), however I have never seen good 'groups' shot by one of those. I have never
seen ANY groups shot with EITHER a 24 or 28 (.54) bore.

[Collector]

16 ga. for deer and turkey.  Octagon to round, swamped barrel.  Front and rear sight, low and traditional.  Lancaster profiled stock to handle recoil, think Newcomer-Fondersmith-ish with a touch of Antes. 

Nice working sized bore, especially for a smoothie - Great lines - Light weight

http://contemporarymakers.blogspot.com/2012/12/allen-martin.html

A rifled bore is generally a clearer choice, a smooth-rifle is more of a process. 

https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=24450.msg234292#msg234292

There will be suggestions and recommendations, forthcoming, but I don't think you'll be disappointed if you decide to go down this smooth-rifle path.

Good luck!!   

[MuskratMike]

For all the reasons Daryl & Collector said. If that's not enough they are seriously cool, and you will be the only one at the next club shoot with one!

[smylee grouch]

I had one in 24 gauge and it was ok with a round ball but limited with the small shot load. If I ever build another it would be a 20 bore or 16 would be better IMHO.

[brokenhand]

Thank you all for your thoughts and experiences. Still scratching my head. Probably will be for a while.

[Top Jaw]

Agree it has to be 20 ha to be useful as a scatter gun.  I like them because I like the look of a rifle over a Fowler.  Personal taste on that. 

[utseabee]

I am trying to come up with an idea for a new rifle. I have never had a fowler or a smooth rifle. Looking for what it is about them that people really like? Is it the RB or shot versatility? Is it hard to come up with a shot load? If you use it to hunt turkey, do you need a specialty choked type barrel to be effective? Would a 58 cal smooth be a good turkey gun?  What kind of RB accuracy can I expect at say 50 yds? Any info you can enlighten me with will be appreciated. I am kind of by myself with this hobby down here where I live in Ar., but I have been fooling with this stuff for a long time now.

.58 smooth. Groups under 3" at 50 yards with round ball. Does ok with shot out to 25 yards. Has no choke so the pattern opens up fast.

[elkhorne]

brokenhand,
I am in your same spirit! I have a beautiful piece of wood and have been planning on building an oct to rid barrel on a Lehigh or Bucks county school. I was going to go with a .54 smooth but may go back to the same thing with rifling. I am like you, I live in a muzzleloading void, I call the “Louisiana Triangle”. I am just out of Shreveport, LA and the closest NMLRA club is 2 hours plus south of me. As you probably know from living in Arkansas, once summer and 100 degree temperatures hit, I do not fell like going out and sweating profusely to shoot. I will watch this thread to see the other reply’s from those much more experienced than I. Hope our members can help us both out.
elkhorne

[Daniel Coats]

There definitely must be a knack to shooting smooth bores well. I've only had one about 25 years ago I think it was a Tulle De Chase in 62 caliber. Granted I didn't work with it much but I couldn't hit a basketball at 50 yards with it. Your mileage may vary 

[rich pierce]

For someone who enjoys having a variety of muzzleloaders, this type offers new challenges. In our ML club we have just one smoothbore match a year, but that’s enough to spur some interest. For hunters who routinely get a deer or two a year with a flintlock, getting one with a smoothbore is an additional challenge. For history buffs it’s another thing from the past to experience and explore.

Why were smooth rifles made and used? In some cases like Berks county “schimmel” guns it seems an inexpensive utility gun was what farmers wanted. A “barn gun”.  The reasons behind fine golden age smooth rifles are only speculative. I personally do not see the utility of small bore smooth rifles for the sportsman or hunter. But there was clearly a market for them. Anything under .58 in a smoothbore is not for me. In a .50 or under I’m not sure I could be more successful with small game hunting while shooting shot from a smoothbore than with a rifle of the same caliber. At 30 yards and further a round ball from a .45 or .50 rifle would get me more squirrels than shot from a smoothbore of those calibers. I’m not going to fire at running rabbits or flying birds with a rifle of any caliber or with a smoothbore under .58. I’m just not an exceptional wing shot. Don’t have a problem getting birds or bunnies with big bore smoothbores.

[thecapgunkid]

JUst do it.

All the questions you asked and the advice you have here will resolve and that is half the fun.

[P.Bigham]

Try a straight rifled barrel. I just finished one up. Haven’t had the opportunity to shoot it a lot yet. Had one year’s ago. Off a bench it would shoot as well as any rifle.

[Daryl]

I had a straight rifled 13 bore. It shot ball fairly well, about 2" at 30 yards from a rest. At 50yards, it shot 5" to 6", which was better than my current 20bore smoothie shoots.
It appears utseabee's smooth .58 shoots a LOT better than my straight rifled barrel did.

[Hungry Horse]

 Obviously our experiences are all different. My recommendation would be a .58 cal. Fowler instead of a smooth rifle, with no choke. I shoot loose ball right on top of the powder charge, no patch. Big charges of around a hundred grains of 2F and just cover the shot, or ball, with a piece of wool blanket with some venison tallow, or bear grease on it.
 Shot loads from a .58 will be long, because the bore is small, but it will be tighter if you don’t add wads, and cards. Long shot strings just require learning where to lead moving targets.

  Hungry Horse

[utseabee]

I had a straight rifled 13 bore. It shot ball fairly well, about 2" at 30 yards from a rest. At 50yards, it shot 5" to 6", which was better than my current 20bore smoothie shoots.
It appears utseabee's smooth .58 shoots a LOT better than my straight rifled barrel did.

   It shoots a lot better than I can, that's for sure. It is a Rice D weight 44" Dickert Profile .58 smooth. It is my go to rifle for hunting. Easy to load and easy to clean. I use a .560 round ball from an old Ideal mold, .020 patching, Lehigh Valley lube and 90 grains of Goex FFG. Shoots clean through Whitetails, I have never recovered a ball. I have never shot it past 50 yards on paper, but it hits gongs at 75 yards. Where I hunt, there isn't much opportunity to shoot past 50 yards, so it fills my needs perfectly. I have a few friends who shoot .56 cal smooth bores using the exact same load as they use in their .54 rifles. They had Bobby Hoyt make the .56 smooth bore barrels and all of those shoot outstanding. On the other hand, my 20 gauge fowler doesn't get much under 6" at 50 yards and throws a lot of fliers. I can't explain the difference in the two. If it was me building one, I would go with the .58 rifle built gun. If it doesn't work out, you can always have the barrel rifled later. You will always wander about it until you try it

[heinz]

Why?  Why not build a classic smoothbore or officer's fusil?

[ole188]

Who is currently making a straight rifled barrel? I know Getz made some up years back.

[R.J.Bruce]

Who is currently making a straight rifled barrel? I know Getz made some up years back.

I believe Rice will, upon request.

[Kevin]

Who is currently making a straight rifled barrel? I know Getz made some up years back.

I believe Rice will, upon request.

Mr. Burton includes this statement on his website:
ALL BARRELS AVAILABLE SQUARE OR ROUND BOTTOM RIFLING WITH TWISTS FROM 1-18" TO STRAIGHT ( ZERO TWIST)

https://fcibarrels.tripod.com/rifle-barrels.html

Kevin

[Mauser06]

Could also jug choke if you want a tighter pattern for turkey hunting but still be able to shoot round balls.


I had a jugged 62. Without much load work, it was running around 3" at 50yds.  Was running about 85 hits in a 10" circle at 30yds.  Killed a couple deer and long beards with it.

Very versatile gun. 

1

[AsMs]

All,

Just a thought. Could it be that smooth bore accuracy (group size and flyers) is not as good out of a Fowler because of the thinner wall of the round barrel. Maybe better with a full octagon barrel bored smooth due thicker wall.

Any opinions?

AsMs

[rich pierce]

I’ve got a 1” octagon 20 gauge barrel 32” long that won’t shoot round ball into 6” at 35 yards. And my 46”, oct to round thin walled .69 will shoot into 3” or 4” at 50 yards. Accuracy in smoothbores is witchcraft.

[Hungry Horse]

I’ve not found smooth rifles to be more accurate than a lighter fowler. I think the main attraction to a Fowler for me is it lightness and the handle ability. They are just very comfortable to carry and shoot. A smoothbore rifle has all the disadvantages, with few of the advantages IMO.

 Hungry Horse

[Daryl]

Theoretically, a thicker walled barrel should be more accurate.  What should be and what is, is usually dictated through much experimentation,
trial and error put into the 'game'.
The same argument of thin vs. thick, took place amongst the militaries of the world, back in the early 1800's.  Was the .69 musket of 1842 more accurate
than the 1820's musket with thin barrel walls? I don't know, but the 1842 musket's barrel was thick enough to rifle in the late 1850's for the little 730 Minnie ball.
Perhaps there-in lies the advantage of thicker walls. The ability to turn it into a rifle when it doesn't shoot well as a smoothbore.