Author Topic: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US  (Read 3547 times)

Daddyof2

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Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« on: January 03, 2021, 01:51:58 AM »
Could the Northwest trade guns with the large bow triggerguard and serpent side plate be found in the the Southern US areas of North and South Carolina in the early to mid 1800s? Thanks guys!

Offline Hungry Horse

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #1 on: January 03, 2021, 03:02:30 AM »
 My suspicion would be that the government would be limiting gun sales to Indians with the moving of the southern tribes to Oklahoma.

  Hungry Horse

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #2 on: January 03, 2021, 06:07:46 AM »
Actually the US government was supplying the southern Indians with large quantities of guns as treaty gifts and annuities leading up to and during the removals. 

The Cherokee Indians aided General Andrew Jackson in defeating the Creek Indians during the Creek War (1813-1814) and were provided some arms at that time.

During the War of 1812, the British government probably shipped more of the 12,494 NW trade guns they had made for their Indian allies to the southern Indians than to Canada and the Great Lakes Region.

In North Carolina in 1817 and 1819, the Cherokee signed treaties that ceded large tracts of land and some 2,000 Cherokee moved west of the Mississippi on land along the Arkansas River.

In 1830, the Indian Removal Act was passed by Congress and signed by President Jackson.

Many Indians voluntarily relocated to the Indian Territory (present-day Oklahoma), but forciful removal began in the late-1830s.  In 1838, approximately 17,000 North Carolina Cherokee are forcibly removed from the state.  This became known as the Trail of Tears.

The Office of Indian Trade and later Bureau of Indian Affairs purchased large numbers of imported English Northwest trade guns for treaty gifts and annuities.  In addition, the US Factory System was established in 1795 and continued until 1922.  Several Factories or US trading posts were set up in the South to trade with the Indians. These Factories also traded Northwest trade guns.

Up until 1839, the NW trade guns were imported.  In that year, Henry Deringer contracted with the US government to make 900 NW trade guns.  He received another contract in 1844 for 385 NW guns.

Beginning in 1841, the Bureau of Indian Affairs began contracting with George Tryon to make NW trade guns and the next year contracted with Henry Leman to make the same.  Tryon continued to make trade guns for the government until 1855 and Leman continued until 1860.

There were a number of private traders that were trading in the South, too.  After the Revolutionary War, the firm of Panton, Leslie & Company which was started by Loyalists that sided with Britain and forced to go to St. Augustine to continue their trade with southern Indians under the protection of Spain.  The Spanish allowed them to buy English trade goods and send furs and skins (mostly deer skins) to England and other European markets.  They operated until the early 1800s.  English made NW trade guns and English Pattern Trade Rifles were likely part of their regular trade goods.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2021, 06:12:13 AM by Mtn Meek »
Phil Meek

Offline backsplash75

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #3 on: January 03, 2021, 07:13:19 PM »
Good question for Mr. Levy who posts here. IMO possible but not probable from what I have seen. I haven't noticed any dug chunks of NW gun furniture in NC or SC, but plenty of Carolina gun parts show up there. There is a dig report on a Seminole War era cache in Fla. [The Flintlock Site (8JA1763): An Unusual Underwater Deposit in the Apalachicola River, Florida] that turned up English/g/Carolina gun parts and a TULLE lockplate.

Offline Levy

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #4 on: January 04, 2021, 04:58:12 AM »
From what Mtn. Meek said it seems plausible there were NW guns in the SE, but after seeing a lot of artifacts recovered from Florida's rivers, I can't say that I've seen any typical NW gun parts.  There have been a lot Carolina Gun parts (Type G in TM Hamilton's book) recovered.  Some years ago, Ben Coogle, in GA, sent me some pictures of gun parts that had been found up that way and if I remember correctly, one fragment was from a scaled, 3 dimensional serpent, as is usually found on NW guns.  I've seen brass parts from other types of trade guns that were later than (younger) than Carolina Guns, but no NW gun parts that I've seen from Florida.  It may have happened, but I just haven't seen it in the parts that came through the State's Conservation Lab.  James Levy
James Levy

Offline heinz

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #5 on: January 05, 2021, 07:10:27 PM »
the" five civilized tribes" in the Southeast were more tied in with white frontier civilization and economics.  The most common gun may have been an iron mounted Southern Mountain rifle.  Both North Carolina and South Carolina gunsmiths did a brisk trade with the tribe. I would guess the same was true of Georgia gunsmiths. 

The English trade gun was a very common gun across the colonies.  Although the particular Northwest style does not appear to be common in the south, based on archeological evidence, there is some evidence of occasional use of some of the features.  If you are looking from a re-enacting standpoint, I think you would have a wide range of period smoothbores to choose from.
kind regards, heinz

Online Shopdog

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #6 on: January 06, 2021, 01:38:44 AM »
Being a disciple of Mr Levy I concur with his expertise.  Ive looked at many collections both museum and private from FL, GA, and AL and have personally found a number of trade gun parts as a contract archaeologist in FL. The vast majority of parts are of British extraction although French trade guns were also found. The English traders in the SE imported large quantities of smoothbore trade guns from Britain for the deerskin trade (late 18th cent going rate amongst the Creeks was 16lbs of dressed leather for a trade gun).  These were the predecessor to what we think of as a classic NW trade gun - I could be wrong but it seems like the NW gun is later in the evolution - overall the same basic gun just slight differences in details like the sideplate design.  For the most accurate 18th century SE trade gun I would go with a “Type G” ala Hamilton’s book on the subject. Colonial Williamsburg has an outstanding example in their collection.  Some of these had extra embellishments (think “Chief’s grade”) and many had painted stocks and rear sights. Ben Coogle, Clay Smith, Jack Brooks, and several others have built historically accurate “Carolina” guns.  I saw where  Jim Kibbler is planning on offering a kit - I’m saving up for that when it becomes available!
Joe Davis

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Offline jrb

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #7 on: January 06, 2021, 01:50:04 AM »
Shopdog, ha, me too on the Kibler Wilson fowler. I emailed a while ago and they will eventually have the barrels available separately, which i'm really hoping will also work for early northwest trade guns and type G builds.

Offline Mtn Meek

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #8 on: January 07, 2021, 10:12:51 PM »
I see Type G trade guns and T. M. Hamilton's books and colonial trade guns being referenced in several posts.  I think these posts are missing the point.  The OP was specifically asking about "Northwest trade guns with the large bow triggerguard and serpent side plate be found in the the Southern US areas of North and South Carolina in the early to mid 1800s?"

He wasn't seeking information about colonial period trade guns.

I looked through the three books I have in my library by T. M. Hamilton.




All three of these books focus on the colonial period.  There is no reference in any of the three to archeological artifacts from a Northwest trade gun--in the South or anywhere else on the continent.  Hamilton just wasn't interested in them.  He left that area of study to Charles E. Hanson, Jr. and S. James Gooding.

Furthermore, there may be something out there that I'm not aware of, but I don't know of any book that covers trade gun archeological evidence from the 19th century.

There are likely some academic papers written on the subject, and if someone can provide references to them, I would be interested in reading them.

I did find the paper on The Flintlock Site (8JA1763) by Christopher E. Horrell, Della A. Scott-Ireton, Roger C. Smith, James Levy, and Joe Knetsch.

It's conclusions were in part,
Quote
Analysis of artifacts recovered from the Flintlock Site and of those left in situ on the river bed produced no archaeological evidence that could be linked conclusively to the 1817 army boat ambush episode. No artifacts were encountered that could positively be identified as belonging to the U.S. Army. Instead, the Flintlock Site collection appears to represent material remnants of cultural activities that took place along the river from the time of prehistoric occupation to the late Colonial and Seminole Period trade and conflict, the development of ante- and post-bellum plantation traffic, turn-of-the-century timber industries, and into modern commercial and recreational river use.

All the gun fragments found at the site, including the Type G, were dated to the 1700s.  The report said, "The most significant conclusion derived from the study of these weapons is that they were too old to have been used in the 1817 Scott ambush incident."

The issue of Northwest trade gun parts in the archeological record from the early 1800s in the South is still an open question, for me.

For perspective, I'm posting a map of the US Factories in the South.  In parenthesis are the dates that each trading post was active.  The Tellico and Hiwassee factories served the Cherokees in eastern Tennessee and western North Carolina and are closest to the area of the OP's original question.



The US trading posts are just one of the possible sources of NW trade guns in the area, though.  Private traders were still active in the South in the early 1800s.  And as I stated before, the British shipped a large number of arms to the area during the War of 1812.

The Southern Indians utilized rifles earlier and to a greater extent than Indians in other parts of the continent, but why would the smoothbore Type G have been such a popular arm during the colonial period in the South and a smoothbore NW trade gun not be present at all decades later?  To suggest that all Southern Indians used rifles is stereotyping them.  They were individuals just like everybody else and would have had individual preferences when it came to arms.  Some would have preferred rifles, some fowling pieces, and some likely NW trade guns.

I'm not surprised by Mr. Levy's observations about the lack of NW gun parts from Florida.  Florida was under Spanish control until 1819.  The US conducted on-again-off-again military operations against the Seminole Indians from about 1816 to 1858.  At no time did the US have incentive to sanction trade with the Seminole.
Phil Meek

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #9 on: January 08, 2021, 03:29:17 AM »
Mtn Meek - Great observations and clarification points you made.  We have scant archaeological evidence from the period in question (early 19th century) as it relates to gun parts of weapons traded to the Seminole/Creek (mind you this is my narrow prism I'm working in -  SW GA to FL) - we have much more to go on from the longer period of deposition during the height of the deerskin trade on sites in the SE.  Here's what we do know - the trade via the Brits/French had died out by the first decade of the 19th century due to the SE Indians wiping out the deer (yes that was an acknowledged problem by the indigenous people themselves) and geopolitics in general.  Result being the gun flow as it related to "trade" was tapering off but not so as it related to U.S. treaty "largess".  Quantities of guns (and ammo) continued to flow even as wars of removal were being fought.  What's been puzzling to me is designation of "Spanish rifles being given to the Indians (Seminoles)..." in the official U.S. accounts during the Second Seminole War.  To my knowledge there is no such animal.  But at the same time Lehman, Derringer and others were contracted to make rifles for the Indian trade.  We also know the Brits were heavily arming the Indians and "black" allies via the War of 1812.  At this point we're talking the first Seminole war.  These people were being armed and trained by the British Royal Marines to fight the U.S. move into FL!  When the Brits pulled out they left all their indigenous allies with the weaponry  and uniforms.    I personally found a British Royal Marines badge on a site in South Florida!  What it all means is the trade had collapses by the 19th century in the SE (from a British perspective anyways) but the the flow of firearms had not.  I personally think the classic NW trade gun was not moving into the SE by 1800 but that's just based on the archaeological evidence  - being a professional archaeologist I would take that with a grain of salt ;D ;D ;D By the time the classic NW trade gun had evolved the economy and geopolitical reality had moved west.  Not to say it wasn't here at all but by that point in time the Seminoles and Creeks were demanding "rifles".  That's a whole other contentious topic!
« Last Edit: January 08, 2021, 06:07:59 PM by Shopdog »
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Offline Einsiedler

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2021, 10:20:56 PM »
This sure looks like a piece of a serpent sideplate. I suppose we could speculate about it’s provenance and if it made it to where it was found attached to a gun or was already just a piece. Probably from a little to far west in the "south" that what the OP was looking for. But interesting anyway.



Found at Presidio La Bahia, Goliad Tx.


Offline cshirsch

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2021, 10:41:55 PM »
This 1855 Belgian trade musket was found in a cave in northern New Mexico.







Offline Einsiedler

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2021, 10:53:55 PM »
Apparently there was also a complete lock with the lockbolts and serpent sidplate (of the NW gun style) attached found at San Jacinto battlefield too (McKinney 2006:76).

The piece I posted above was found in the vicinity of the south gate at Presidio La Bahia. There was another fragment of a different sideplate of the same style found in the south end of the officers quarter. This was during the restoration archaeology work of 1965-67.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2021, 11:01:15 PM by Einsiedler »

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2021, 11:14:40 PM »
This 1855 Belgian trade musket was found in a cave in northern New Mexico.







No way!!! That’s classic Kettenburg right there y’all!!
Stop Marxism in America

Offline cshirsch

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2021, 04:05:34 PM »
This 1855 Belgian trade musket was found in a cave in northern New Mexico.







No way!!! That’s classic Kettenburg right there y’all!!

Kettenburg???

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2021, 04:26:11 PM »
Tounge in cheek, my friend...
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Offline cshirsch

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Re: Northwest guns in the 1800s Southern US
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2021, 04:44:06 PM »
Tounge in cheek, my friend...

:-)  I don't know who or what that is. 

Offline utseabee

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