Author Topic: Fusil Barrels Help Please  (Read 3620 times)

Offline Panzerschwein

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 528
Fusil Barrels Help Please
« on: January 10, 2021, 06:44:31 AM »
Hi.

I am interested in having made for me a .58 calibered Fusil de Chasse.

I understand the barrels of the originals were of a lightweight profile and in the caliber of .58, of which I am “stuck on” for the build, I understand most makers to-day of barrels produce them in blanks for .62 calibered guns and this can lead to thicker profiles for smaller calibers.

My question to the gentleman of the board is if anyone knows where to source a proper lightweight barrel for a .58 smoothbore Fusil de Chasse? Thank you sirs and God bless you.

-Panzer

Online Dave B

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3132
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #1 on: January 10, 2021, 07:59:45 AM »
It is always a tough wait time on a custom barrel profile and some are longer than others to get that special barrel made. I have a 12 ga. 42" fowler barrel by Ed Rayl and it is the slimmest barrel I have ever seen, not you typical .62 thick walled trade-gun type. I was lucky enough to win it as a door prize at the Oregon Gunmakers fair a number of years ago. The muzzle end wall thickness is only .060 and he uses real gun-barrel steel for his barrels. This is not leaded screw stock.
Dave Blaisdell

Offline Mtn Meek

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 304
    • GRRW Collector
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #2 on: January 10, 2021, 08:56:01 AM »
Actually, a .580" bore is on the low range of the tolerance for French trade gun bore sizes.  The mean was .600" or true .60 caliber.

The French used a system like the English to designate the size bore of a barrel by specifying the number of balls per livre the gun was intended to shoot. The French livre was a unit of weight, in fact it literally translate to "pound" in English, but it was larger (489.5 grams) than the English pound avoirdupois (453.6 grams).

Keven Gladysz in The French Trade Gun in North America wrote,
Quote
A letter addressed in approximately 1710 by Pontchartrain, French minister of Marine, to the Intendant Bégon at Rochefort, provides us with important comparative information regarding the differences between the fusil de chasse [likely corresponding to the Tulle model] and the marine musket of the period: "What we call fusils de chasse are guns whereby the gun locks and furniture are more delicately made [proportionately smaller in size] than those for the troops. The barrels are also much lighter, using less matter [iron]. The calibre is of 28 balls per livre and those for the troops are of 18 balls per livre. This means that if we wanted to use fusils de chasse for the troops, those who distribute the balls would need to give to each soldier using a fusil de chasse, balls of 28 balls per livre, and they are too light to be used with a socket bayonet. These types of guns are usually meant for Canada and Acadia."


A ball 28 to the livre has a diameter of .563" while a ball 28 to the pound has a diameter of .550".

T. M. Hamilton published a bunch of bore and ball size data from archeological sites in his book, Colonial Frontier Guns, plus some data on French "go" and "no-go" barrel bore gauges that were found in Paris.  The "go" and "no-go" gauge data from Hamilton for 28 balls per livre is shown below.



From this table, the inspector would pass all barrels that had a bore ID that fell in the range of .577 to .623 inches.  The average being .600 inches.

Hamilton published in tabular form the bore diameters measured from barrel fragments found at three different Osage village sites.  These villages were occupied through most of the 1700s and one into the 1800s.  They contain both French and British gun fragments, but the French appear to be most prevalent.  I've converted the data from his Table IV to a frequency histogram which I think is easier to visualize.



As can be seen from the graph, the most frequent bore size found was .60 inches.  In fact, 46% or almost half of the barrels fall within the tolerance for the 28 balls-to-the-livre barrel.

Hamilton's Table II also gave windage ranges, the mean being equivalent to .037 inches.

For French trade guns, the standard size was a nominal 28 balls to the livre. Expressing this in bore size and modern shotgun gauge, we get,

28 bttl = 0.563" + .037" windage = 0.60" bore or close to modern 22 gauge

Given the manufacturing tolerances of the day, actual guns could range from 24 to almost 19 gauge or .58 to .62 caliber.  One could choose either a .58 or .62 caliber barrel for a French trade gun and still be in the tolerance range, but the most common size would have been a .60 caliber.
Phil Meek

Offline Panzerschwein

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 528
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #3 on: January 10, 2021, 12:08:56 PM »
Actually, a .580" bore is on the low range of the tolerance for French trade gun bore sizes.  The mean was .600" or true .60 caliber.

The French used a system like the English to designate the size bore of a barrel by specifying the number of balls per livre the gun was intended to shoot. The French livre was a unit of weight, in fact it literally translate to "pound" in English, but it was larger (489.5 grams) than the English pound avoirdupois (453.6 grams).

Keven Gladysz in The French Trade Gun in North America wrote,
Quote
A letter addressed in approximately 1710 by Pontchartrain, French minister of Marine, to the Intendant Bégon at Rochefort, provides us with important comparative information regarding the differences between the fusil de chasse [likely corresponding to the Tulle model] and the marine musket of the period: "What we call fusils de chasse are guns whereby the gun locks and furniture are more delicately made [proportionately smaller in size] than those for the troops. The barrels are also much lighter, using less matter [iron]. The calibre is of 28 balls per livre and those for the troops are of 18 balls per livre. This means that if we wanted to use fusils de chasse for the troops, those who distribute the balls would need to give to each soldier using a fusil de chasse, balls of 28 balls per livre, and they are too light to be used with a socket bayonet. These types of guns are usually meant for Canada and Acadia."


A ball 28 to the livre has a diameter of .563" while a ball 28 to the pound has a diameter of .550".

T. M. Hamilton published a bunch of bore and ball size data from archeological sites in his book, Colonial Frontier Guns, plus some data on French "go" and "no-go" barrel bore gauges that were found in Paris.  The "go" and "no-go" gauge data from Hamilton for 28 balls per livre is shown below.



From this table, the inspector would pass all barrels that had a bore ID that fell in the range of .577 to .623 inches.  The average being .600 inches.

Hamilton published in tabular form the bore diameters measured from barrel fragments found at three different Osage village sites.  These villages were occupied through most of the 1700s and one into the 1800s.  They contain both French and British gun fragments, but the French appear to be most prevalent.  I've converted the data from his Table IV to a frequency histogram which I think is easier to visualize.



As can be seen from the graph, the most frequent bore size found was .60 inches.  In fact, 46% or almost half of the barrels fall within the tolerance for the 28 balls-to-the-livre barrel.

Hamilton's Table II also gave windage ranges, the mean being equivalent to .037 inches.

For French trade guns, the standard size was a nominal 28 balls to the livre. Expressing this in bore size and modern shotgun gauge, we get,

28 bttl = 0.563" + .037" windage = 0.60" bore or close to modern 22 gauge

Given the manufacturing tolerances of the day, actual guns could range from 24 to almost 19 gauge or .58 to .62 caliber.  One could choose either a .58 or .62 caliber barrel for a French trade gun and still be in the tolerance range, but the most common size would have been a .60 caliber.

Omagosh, wow. Lots of info and thank you, sir.


Perhaps a compromise of .62 would be better in terms of availabilitude.

Then, whom makes a barrel thus in the most correct profile for a Fusil de Chasse, particularly one that could have been used at Fort de Charters, Illinois, right near to by boyhood home?

Offline alex e.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #4 on: January 10, 2021, 02:10:47 PM »
Larry Horrigan, in Hopkins, Michigan.  He has the exact pattern  for my fdc barrel  made in 1740.
Uva uvam videndo varia fit

Offline alacran

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2258
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #5 on: January 10, 2021, 03:14:16 PM »
If anyone has correct profiles for a French Fusil barrel it would be Ed Rayl. The barrels that are out there are compromises made to fit pre- carve stocks. If I were you I would try to find someone near you with a French Fusil and see if he will let you shoot it. 
The pitch and drop at the but as well as the drop of the comb tend to make these guns cheek slappers. I made one 20 years ago from a plank with a 44 inch Getz barrel. I used Tracks plan. Also I used Hamilton's book and photos of originals for proper profile. I learned to shoot it fairly well, though it beat me up so I didn't shoot it as much as I would have a gun that was pleasant to shoot.
 Unfortunately AZWINS has been cancelled this year, due to Covid. Las Vegas is not too far from Phoenix.
 After I built my English patterned Smooth bore, I wish I had never built that Frenchie.
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline t.caster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3729
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #6 on: January 10, 2021, 07:09:05 PM »
Again I recommend Larry Horrigan for correct French patterns.
Tom C.

Offline jrb

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 290
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2021, 07:23:18 PM »
If you have facebook , you might want to check out Alex Efremenko's site, "french fusils by alex efremenko" , (Alex e. who posted above). i'm  not sure what material Michigan, Larry Horrigan makes his barrels from but also i'm interested to find out.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2021, 07:27:35 PM by jrb »

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #8 on: January 10, 2021, 07:31:13 PM »
Talk to Bob Hoyt, he has my French Fusil  de trait barrel pattern. It's not an FDC pattern though.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline alex e.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #9 on: January 10, 2021, 09:10:11 PM »
If you have facebook , you might want to check out Alex Efremenko's site, "french fusils by alex efremenko" , (Alex e. who posted above). i'm  not sure what material Michigan, Larry Horrigan makes his barrels from but also i'm interested to find out.
He uses the  material no one likes to discuss. But in his 30 years of making  barrels, he nor anyone  else(myself included) have not blown up. He will gladly and passionately discuss the matter if asked.
Uva uvam videndo varia fit

Offline alex e.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #10 on: January 10, 2021, 09:11:39 PM »
Even Kevin Gladysz  owns a fusil with a barrel  by Larry.........
Uva uvam videndo varia fit

Offline Levy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 787
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #11 on: January 10, 2021, 09:44:21 PM »
A lot of the French gun barrels that I've seen (from Louisiana) that were recovered archaeologically, had a flat on the top of the barrel that ran from the breech to the muzzle.  I think this feature is difficult for barrel makers to duplicate today without added expense.  The percussion O/U Beretta shotguns have this feature.  The gun barrels that I worked on were sent to us for conservation by Alan Toth, who I think was the State Archaeologist at the time in La.  James Levy
James Levy

Offline alex e.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #12 on: January 10, 2021, 10:10:44 PM »
A lot of the French gun barrels that I've seen (from Louisiana) that were recovered archaeologically, had a flat on the top of the barrel that ran from the breech to the muzzle.  I think this feature is difficult for barrel makers to duplicate today without added expense.  The percussion O/U Beretta shotguns have this feature.  The gun barrels that I worked on were sent to us for conservation by Alan Toth, who I think was the State Archaeologist at the time in La.  James Levy
Larry  will do it. It costs  about 250.00 extra.
Those barrels you speak of were most likely from a better grade of gun. Not from the iron mounted fdc from tulle or SE
The Gladysz book goes into depth on those arms
Uva uvam videndo varia fit

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #13 on: January 11, 2021, 01:40:37 AM »
My original fusil de trait barrel is oct fading to round. It has a full length top flat, but it is not a "stepped plain" . it just a plain old flat spot filed in with a draw file. This wasn't a high grade gun.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline alex e.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #14 on: January 11, 2021, 02:08:49 AM »
Mike, I was referring  to the raised sighting plane. For that the barrel  needs to be made oversized, and every  thing taken down to keep it proportional
Uva uvam videndo varia fit

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #15 on: January 11, 2021, 02:43:00 AM »
Mike, I was referring  to the raised sighting plane. For that the barrel  needs to be made oversized, and every  thing taken down to keep it proportional
Yep, gotcha. I just couldn't explain it.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline gunmaker

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 691
  • the old dog gunmaker
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #16 on: January 11, 2021, 03:50:49 AM »
It is always a tough wait time on a custom barrel profile and some are longer than others to get that special barrel made. I have a 12 ga. 42" fowler barrel by Ed Rayl and it is the slimmest barrel I have ever seen, not you typical .62 thick walled trade-gun type. I was lucky enough to win it as a door prize at the Oregon Gunmakers fair a number of years ago. The muzzle end wall thickness is only .060 and he uses real gun-barrel steel for his barrels. This is not leaded screw stock.
I have to sharpen my graver two times to put my whole name on a RAYL.....worth the wait and the weight........Tom

Offline alex e.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #17 on: January 11, 2021, 04:07:18 PM »
FWIW,  using  my pattern fdc barrel in 20 gauge 44 incheslong, it makes a gun a little  over 7.25 lbs. And my 57.5 anchor marked gun goes only 8.5..
All I'm saying is you get a well profiled, historically correct barrel from Larry.
Without excessive wait times. I've had barrels in a week.Right now hes caught up on orders. And being on lockdown in the people's republic of Michigan,  hes looking for projects...
« Last Edit: January 11, 2021, 04:13:03 PM by alex e. »
Uva uvam videndo varia fit

Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2257
  • Oklahoma
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #18 on: January 12, 2021, 04:56:56 AM »
FWIW,  using  my pattern fdc barrel in 20 gauge 44 incheslong, it makes a gun a little  over 7.25 lbs. And my 57.5 anchor marked gun goes only 8.5..
All I'm saying is you get a well profiled, historically correct barrel from Larry.
Without excessive wait times. I've had barrels in a week.Right now hes caught up on orders. And being on lockdown in the people's republic of Michigan,  hes looking for projects...

Are FDC barrels tapered and flared or just tapered?
Psalms 144

Offline alex e.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 772
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #19 on: January 12, 2021, 05:03:17 AM »
Tapered.
Uva uvam videndo varia fit

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #20 on: January 12, 2021, 09:10:33 PM »
FWIW,  using  my pattern fdc barrel in 20 gauge 44 incheslong, it makes a gun a little  over 7.25 lbs. And my 57.5 anchor marked gun goes only 8.5..
All I'm saying is you get a well profiled, historically correct barrel from Larry.
Without excessive wait times. I've had barrels in a week.Right now hes caught up on orders. And being on lockdown in the people's republic of Michigan,  hes looking for projects...

Are FDC barrels tapered and flared or just tapered?
All original fusil de trait and fusil de chasse guns I have seen have compound  tapered barrels, no flare at the muzzle.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline Clark Badgett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2257
  • Oklahoma
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #21 on: January 13, 2021, 01:01:00 AM »
Anyone have contact info for Mr. Horrigan. Didn't find much to go on with a search.
Psalms 144

Offline Rick Anthony

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 31
Re: Fusil Barrels Help Please
« Reply #22 on: January 13, 2021, 05:17:03 AM »
Clark, I sent you a PM with info.     Rick
Uncle Hiram