Author Topic: Goodoien Schuetzen ML..370 groove barrel for Paper Patch  (Read 529 times)

Offline Longbow

  • Starting Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1
Goodoien Schuetzen ML..370 groove barrel for Paper Patch
« on: January 14, 2021, 12:28:36 AM »
I picked up a real nice Schuetzen ML with a Goodoien Barrel It has a .370 groove dia. and A shallow .366 bore dia. So for paper patch the onion paper I have from Buffalo Arms is .00175 thickness, two wraps will make it .007. So I want a bullet cast  sized at .363 ...right?  Kind of an oddball barrel. Any help on this I appreciate. I am new to PP. Yes I've read Paul Mahtthews  "The Paper Patch Jacket" Excellent Book by the way. Thankyou for your time.Pete

Offline snapper

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1735
Re: Goodoien Schuetzen ML..370 groove barrel for Paper Patch
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2021, 12:53:26 AM »
Depends

I assume you are going to have a mold cut for you?  And you want to do it right the first time?

I shoot PP for long range ML in a .451 rifle.   My bullets are .451" wrapped in paper.   I use a sizing die that is .448".  I size after I wrap and it also helps keep the paper on the bullet.

I have a .448 and a .449 sizing dies.   Had both made so that I could play with what worked well for the rifle.   The dies were cheaper then getting a new mold cut if I wanted to go a thousands smaller or larger.

After I size the bullets are not .448" they are a tad bigger.

If it were mine I would go a thousands bigger then I think I need and using a sizing die to get you exactly where you want to be.

Fleener
My taste are simple:  I am easily satisfied with the best.  Winston Churchill

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9305
Re: Goodoien Schuetzen ML..370 groove barrel for Paper Patch
« Reply #2 on: January 14, 2021, 05:35:07 AM »
I would expect you want the finished size of the bullet after patching and sizing, to be at most, .001" larger than the bore, just so you can load it.

I did OK with using commercial, grooved lubricated bullets in a .50 cal barrel that were only engraving on the top band. I had with .008" deep rifling,
 but better with a oversized, groove lubricated bullet that was  pushed through a section of the barrel to impart rifling on it's periphery.

I did not experiment with paper patched bullets as I did not want to have to wipe or clean the barrel between shots. This barrel, with the pre-engraved
bullets used to shoot MOA at 100 yards, using very cheap aperture sight rear and globed post on the front.  I would not have to wipe the bore until
all shooting was done for the day - then it was cleaned properly.

There are .366" groove lubricated bullet moulds on the market already. Of course, moulds are not inexpensive & I can see the desire to do it right, the first time.
There are also .360" paper patched moulds, which I assume are made for that or similar "sized barrels. eg: buffalo arms

In retrospect, if your rifling is only .002" per side, that is rather fine.  Taylor had a gun with only .0015" deep rifling and a bore sized, paper patched pure lead bullet gave him
1 1/2" at 100 meters.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9305
Re: Goodoien Schuetzen ML..370 groove barrel for Paper Patch
« Reply #3 on: January 14, 2021, 09:11:37 PM »
Kudu - if the bullet after patching, is groove diameter, you cannot load it in a muzzleloading rifle.
The OP has read The Paper Patch, so he knows about undersized, patched bullets obturating to fill the grooves.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline bob in the woods

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3728
Re: Goodoien Schuetzen ML..370 groove barrel for Paper Patch
« Reply #4 on: January 14, 2021, 09:57:10 PM »
Here is a photo of the PP mould I had made for my .458 muzzleloader barrel.  2 wraps of paper , and I also made up a false muzzle to ensure precise and easy loading. It's an adjustable for weight, nose pour mould .   It shot very well, but in the end I just went with the grooved Postel bullet, since it shot just as well but was less trouble


Offline Curtis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1832
  • Missouri
    • NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU
Re: Goodoien Schuetzen ML..370 groove barrel for Paper Patch
« Reply #5 on: January 15, 2021, 07:38:00 AM »
Depends

I assume you are going to have a mold cut for you?  And you want to do it right the first time?

I shoot PP for long range ML in a .451 rifle.   My bullets are .451" wrapped in paper.   I use a sizing die that is .448".  I size after I wrap and it also helps keep the paper on the bullet.

I have a .448 and a .449 sizing dies.   Had both made so that I could play with what worked well for the rifle.   The dies were cheaper then getting a new mold cut if I wanted to go a thousands smaller or larger.

After I size the bullets are not .448" they are a tad bigger.

If it were mine I would go a thousands bigger then I think I need and using a sizing die to get you exactly where you want to be.

Fleener

Snapper is a top international competitive muzzle-loader shooter and has great advice!  Have used his above suggestions with very promising results in my Alex Henry rifle.

Curtis
Curtis Allinson

NMLRA Gunsmithing Seminar and Workshop at WKU~ http://www.nmlragunsmithingseminar.org/
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Sometimes, late at night when I am alone in the inner sanctum of my workshop and no one else can see, I sand things using only my fingers for backing

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6667
Re: Goodoien Schuetzen ML..370 groove barrel for Paper Patch
« Reply #6 on: January 15, 2021, 05:20:12 PM »
Try and find a grooved mould for the 9.3x74 breech loader.It will probably cast a .368
and a .366 sizer is easy to make,I have made a bunch in the past of different sizes for
the late Joe Hepsworth.I think I still have the reamers but no material anymore.I used
1144 and threaded them 7/8x14 to use in a reloading press.Keep in mind that the Harry
Pope small and medium bore breech/muzzle loaders were the most accurate ever and none used patched
bullets.Have fun with this rifle.

Bob Roller

Offline kudu

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 170
Re: Goodoien Schuetzen ML..370 groove barrel for Paper Patch
« Reply #7 on: January 15, 2021, 06:06:52 PM »
I think I better stick with what i know.
sorry.
I removed my Post.

Offline Bob Roller

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6667
Re: Goodoien Schuetzen ML..370 groove barrel for Paper Patch
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2021, 07:47:22 PM »
Sorry for WHAT??Raising an interesting subject that is not often discussed on this forum.
There is a small group here that has had experience with these bullet guns and I prefer them
for target or for experiments.
  In October of 1962 I bought from E.M.Farris's gun shop in Portsmouth,Ohio a pristine Whitworth
Semi Military Match Rifle.It was a .451 and came with a box of 50 Paper patched bullets and the
box was marked "50 cylindrical bullets for John Rigby's Long Range Guns".I shot them with only
mediocre results and went looking for a bullet mould and found one in the old Lyman catalog from
1953 that I still use from time to time.I ordered and received Lyman Mould 451112 that has a stack
of grease rings and weigh 485 grains.That bullet made a shooter out of that Whitworth which had an
Alex Henry barrel.I used this rifle and bullet for 11 years and was the most satisfactory black powder
rifle I ever owned and I have owned a lot of them.
Don't give up on us,you ARE among friends here.
Bob Roller

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 11090
Re: Goodoien Schuetzen ML..370 groove barrel for Paper Patch
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2021, 08:14:03 PM »
I can understand your frustration and have to say, loading and shooting paper patched bullets is not for everyone.  But it can be some of the most rewarding tinkering and experimenting that one can find.  It is unlikely, though, that you will stumble upon the perfect alloy/bullet dia./shape/weight, right off the get go.  And then there is the paper with rag content/thickness/toughness.  Now add in the various grain sizes and brands of black powder that are available.  And cleaning/fouling control regimes that you will learn.  Yes, it's a fun ride.  I recommend it, especially when you come up with MOA groups at whatever range you choose.  It is my understanding that the .38 cal is a mid-range calibre, though I personally have no experience with that diameter, whereas .45's and .50's I know a little about.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.