Author Topic: J. Henry Lancaster Rifle  (Read 7395 times)

Red Owl

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J. Henry Lancaster Rifle
« on: August 30, 2009, 01:10:37 AM »
This is for Sean, Chuck, et al. I got Carl P. Russell's "GUNS on the Early Frontier" a while ago but am just starting to read it.  I put it off because it looked like the "same old same old" I had read in other books but actually there are a lot of foot notes that lead to other areas.
   Anyhow....p. 320 Ramsey Crooks writes to J.J. Henry:

1835 orders 300 of the Lancaster pattern, "we wish the lock no longer than five inches...the stocks are to be curled maple stained tolerably dark"

In 1836 Crooks again placed an order and insisted the stocks be "curl's maple"

SO.... I thought that being a trade rifle plain maple was probably used but apparantly the pc article would be curled maple AND I thought aqua fortis was the stain and maybe it was except when I use it I get sort of a blond or amber or honey color. Maybe some other kind of stain was used.

AND... we had a really good tutorial a while back on checkering a stock except I thought the pc type was more like a saw had been used- leaving a flat top rather than the diamond point found on modern checkering.

One more thing- on another forum about fake blades there is talk about modern stamps with non-pc letters.  What's the difference?

Sean

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Re: J. Henry Lancaster Rifle
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2009, 05:07:14 PM »
Dave,

Thanks for the info.  I have not read that one.  That lock quote and others I've seen really suggests the level of variability that was present in these guns even within a single maker.  Even Henrys were definitely not cookie cutter guns.  Some of Hanson's writings on them sorta gives the impression that they were all the same within what he defines as a pattern.  I'm not sure that he intended that either.  There is also a letter where Henry writes AFC asking if they can procure English made locks for him to fill their contracts.   My impression is that when a shop got an order for 100 guns or more, they might be doing a little scrambling around to find parts to fill that contract.  The wording of the order was vague enough that 'close enough' would count as in the game of horseshoes.

On the stock wood, almost all of the contract or trade rifles I've seen have had curly maple stocks.  I say almost because a few of them had the curl painted on.  The painted ones were generally later guns circa 1840 or later.  A few makers did it here and there, not all.  I've seen some Lemans that were unfortunately 'cleaned' to remove the painted or dyed decorations.  I think curly maple stocks were very much a cultural thing in America, i.e. it just didn't 'look right' without it.  You do see some exceptions here and there, but they are kind of rare.  I've seen a couple of Peter Gonter's done in plain black walnut.  Another thing on the maple stock issue is that orders for trade rifles often requested them stocked in wood of the 'sugar tree' and hence they actually specified sugar maple.  What I know of eastern forestry suggests that the dominance or red maple in eastern forests is a fairly modern thing and that it was much less common during the period we are interested in.  I wouldn't say it was never used, though.

Sean

Red Owl

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Re: J. Henry Lancaster Rifle
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2009, 08:04:48 PM »
Sean:
    I am glad I didn't just rush on in and start building a Henry from scratch- I have a bad habit of getting all excited about a project and not checking out every detail.  That re-stock I am doing- boy I would recommend that highly to anyone, that is- starting from a plank of wood. The gun was a $70 CVA bobcat type (gift) with a 1/38 twist and a plastic stock that I just really didn't like dragging around, so the reason for the re-stock. A learning experience. And I have learned an awful lot about all the relationships of the various parts, etc and made a lot of jigs I can use again on the Lancaster, so.... I'm happy with what I am doing. Having fun is a big part of our interest, eh?
   Now- back to the Henry trade rifle.
1. Regarding the curly maple- how much curl? Some on the buttstock? The Whole gun? so-so curl or better grade curl?
2. There is some writings about "Varnish" which I take to mean something other than a hand rubbed linseed oil finish.  Any idea about the varnish? High gloss? Satin?
3. The moderately dark stain- on some of the guns you have seen, what would you say is the level of stain on a maple stock? Dark enough to look more like walnut? Amber?

Thanks for any help.

Dave

Sean

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Re: J. Henry Lancaster Rifle
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2009, 10:00:57 PM »
Dave,

I'll preface this by saying I've seen 4 Henry Lancasters which is not by any means a large sample.

1) Highly variable, but nothing close to presentation grade stuff you'd buy today.  Go with something that has some curl and you'll be fine.  I'd suggest you're better off picking something by grain orientation than curl.

2) The varnish appears to have been run of the mill, common brown linseed varnish.  Its glossy and is definitely a surface finish, not an oil finish.  A lot of the color on old longrifles really comes from the varnish and you can see that from where it has worn off in places.  Look up stuff on here and the old board about making varnish.  I gather Chambers has recently revamped his varnish recipe a bit to get a bit more reddish tone.  I picked some of that up recently to play with it, but I think its a pretty good choice.  I know Chuck adds resins and stuff to the Tried and True varnish and boils it.  He gets nice results with it.

3) I don't think they used anything more than AQF on those guns.  Leinemann told me once that he thought they just slapped it on while most of the hardware was on, blushed it, and didn't bother neutralizing it.  If that's the case I'd have expected some of those guns to be darker than they are.  I think some of the darker guns I've seen are actually from the oxidization of the varnish and accumulated grime as opposed to any stain.

Hope that helps.

Sean

Red Owl

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Re: J. Henry Lancaster Rifle
« Reply #4 on: August 31, 2009, 01:35:00 AM »
It does, thanks.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: J. Henry Lancaster Rifle
« Reply #5 on: August 31, 2009, 08:01:47 AM »
This is a Connestoga Rifle Works/Leman that is virtually unused. Leman lock dated 1840.
I think the color is mostly in the varnish but it could be stained?
Its almost surely a western trade rifle, FS and 54 caliber.



This is the Bridger Hawken in Helena. Its a reddish brown varnish. It looks brown at a distance but has significant reddish tones.  Would be nice to get it out in the sun. But this ain't gonna happen. The last time it was out (that I know of) the fools who had access to it shot it. I might have shot it but I would have been more discrete than they were.
I doubt there was a stain used. Nor was it done with durability in mind.


But this is not that far from the Leman in color and its pretty shiny too though an oil finish.



Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Red Owl

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Re: J. Henry Lancaster Rifle
« Reply #6 on: August 31, 2009, 09:33:07 PM »
Dan: That color is very close to the original, a little darker than I get with aqua fortis unless I need to do it differently.  In any event- how did you finish your stock? Thanks.

And, on the checkering. On originals, was the cut square on the bottom or V shaped?
Thanks.

If square, and skip line- what have some of you done, I was thinking of a short section of a hack saw blade and then epoxy glue a spacer, etc for  a two line cutter.

northmn

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Re: J. Henry Lancaster Rifle
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2009, 09:58:00 PM »
I wonder if the trade rifle might be more appropriate with the finish as Dan has shown you for the Hawken.  It was a trade rifle and was made with cost considerations in mind.  Hansen refers to their construction as a result of water powered machine tools and standardization as a way to reduce costs.  They were not poor quality, but were the Remington 700's and Savage 110's of the day.

DP

Sean

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Re: J. Henry Lancaster Rifle
« Reply #8 on: August 31, 2009, 11:27:55 PM »
Quote
And, on the checkering. On originals, was the cut square on the bottom or V shaped?
Thanks.

Dave,

Most of the original ones I've seen were so worn that it was hard to tell.  I'd guess it varied with who made the cutter they were using.  Bioprof posted a nice Fordney that he did a while back.  Take a look at that one.  He did with a single line dembart cutter if I remember right.

Sean

Longarm

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Re: J. Henry Lancaster Rifle
« Reply #9 on: September 02, 2009, 06:29:29 AM »
Hey there Sean, I believe the checking was done with a straight blade however you can get a nice narrow line by using a Dem-bart and cutting a shallow groove and then sanding it back down with fine sandpaper. They should be lines , not grooves.
   Larry

Offline Dphariss

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Re: J. Henry Lancaster Rifle
« Reply #10 on: September 02, 2009, 09:02:09 AM »
Dan: That color is very close to the original, a little darker than I get with aqua fortis unless I need to do it differently.  In any event- how did you finish your stock? Thanks.

And, on the checkering. On originals, was the cut square on the bottom or V shaped?
Thanks.

If square, and skip line- what have some of you done, I was thinking of a short section of a hack saw blade and then epoxy glue a spacer, etc for  a two line cutter.

Its nitric acid with about all the iron it will dissolve fairly low acidity level. Color varies with the wood it is used on and how heavily its applied. I have added more iron since this was stained and it seems to make a darker color.  Finish is 2 coats of re-cooked linseed oil. The first mixed with aged turpentine.

I made my own cutters for this. They cut a straight sided groove.


This is a circa 1800-1820 Manton.
Seems to have been cut with a similar cutter.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Sean

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Re: J. Henry Lancaster Rifle
« Reply #11 on: September 02, 2009, 05:36:00 PM »
Hey Larry,

Speaking of trade rifles, check your e-mail.  Hope you have plenty of space on your inbox.  If this bounces, I'll burn it for you on a CD.

Sean