Author Topic: A few Leman rifles (Read 7986 times)

Taylorz1 · « **on:** January 15, 2021, 09:01:10 PM »

Thought I would share some pictures of a few of my Leman rifles. Frequently when people think of Leman they think of the big heavy large caliber trade guns but in my attempts to collect Leman I find a lot more small <.45 caliber rifles that I think were made for local or hardware store trade. The guns pictured here are all marked Leman on the barrel and I tried to included pictures to show the variety of locks encountered and some of the common variations, the typical faux striping that is so common and other more unique features that pop up. These lemans range from ~.40 to ~.60 caliber with rifled barrels though one in very fine condition I believe was originally made as a smooth rifle with a ~.40cal barrel. I will also try and include pictures of a few "fancy Lemans" that exhibit very high build quality, nicely done engraving and are clearly a step above the hardware store guns and guns "built for the trade" that Leman is frequently associated with. Leman was not a one trick pony. If anyone has any questions or wants more detailed pictures or info please just let me know.

Taylorz1 · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2021, 09:27:31 PM »

Well i thought I had arranged the pics appropriately and had them in a logical order. Not so much. Sorry. I think it still works for show and tell. Thanks to all for looking

Z

JTR · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2021, 10:26:23 PM »

That's an impressive collection of Leman products! I never had any idea there were so many variations!
Thanks for posting them, John

mountainman70 · « **Reply #3 on:** January 16, 2021, 12:27:49 AM »

Indeed. What a great collection, and it really opened my eyes too. Thanks a group for your generous sharing. Best regards, Dave F

smylee grouch · « **Reply #4 on:** January 16, 2021, 12:32:44 AM »

Yes I agree, very nice collection with good variety. There are also a lot of nice Leman rifles in Jim Gordon's museum in Glorieta, NM if you want to see even more.

FALout · « **Reply #5 on:** January 16, 2021, 12:57:32 AM »

Very nice collection, thanks for sharing. Is there any certain characteristics that are most common with these rifles and maybe some odd things that pertain to only certain ones?
Bob

Rajin cajun · « **Reply #6 on:** January 16, 2021, 01:09:22 AM »

Very impressive, and I know a lot of gun show miles and a few years of looking to put a collection like that together.
Thanks for sharing, and congratulations..!

Bob

cshirsch · « **Reply #7 on:** January 16, 2021, 01:18:25 AM »

I recognize at least one of those.

Taylorz1 · « **Reply #8 on:** January 16, 2021, 01:36:04 AM »

Thanks very much for the kind comments everyone. I enjoy collecting these Lemans and am always on the hunt for more. Jim Gordon has a fantastic collection that rivals most museums- he is a gentleman and great source of knowledge too. Chris you should recognize at least 3 or 4 here ! The top gun is the one I got from you with the wrist in 10 pieces. The lock is sticking out in the pic as I pulled it off the bench while making a new tumbler for it and snapped a pic. It turned out to be a good shooter. I think the stereotypical linear barrel stamp, stock architecture and round or square back Leman lock mark the most common features I have seen but am no expert. I think the fancy guns were one off custom order pieces. I own guns marked Leman, Conestoga rifle works, Lancaster rifle works and Eicholz and brothers and they all look like they came out of the same shop. Same stock, same parts, same barrel with the typical Leman rifling and look like they were made by the same hand. I dont know if this was just imitation of a successful pattern but suspect all these named entities were owned by Leman but created for business reasons lost in the fog of history. Thanks again to all for the comments.

Zack

WESTbury · « **Reply #9 on:** January 16, 2021, 03:48:30 AM »

Very nice group, thank you for giving us the pleasure of seeing them.

OLUT · « **Reply #10 on:** January 16, 2021, 06:54:27 PM »

Quote from: Taylorz1 on January 16, 2021, 01:36:04 AM

Thanks very much for the kind comments everyone. I enjoy collecting these Lemans and am always on the hunt for more. Jim Gordon has a fantastic collection that rivals most museums- he is a gentleman and great source of knowledge too. Chris you should recognize at least 3 or 4 here ! The top gun is the one I got from you with the wrist in 10 pieces. The lock is sticking out in the pic as I pulled it off the bench while making a new tumbler for it and snapped a pic. It turned out to be a good shooter. I think the stereotypical linear barrel stamp, stock architecture and round or square back Leman lock mark the most common features I have seen but am no expert. I think the fancy guns were one off custom order pieces. I own guns marked Leman, Conestoga rifle works, Lancaster rifle works and Eicholz and brothers and they all look like they came out of the same shop. Same stock, same parts, same barrel with the typical Leman rifling and look like they were made by the same hand. I dont know if this was just imitation of a successful pattern but suspect all these named entities were owned by Leman but created for business reasons lost in the fog of history. Thanks again to all for the comments.

Zack

Wow, quite a nice selection! Can you post a photo of your Eichholtz gun? I have seen only a few guns by Henry & Robert Eichholtz made during their partnership from 1859 to 1871, and I know of their relationship to Henry Eichholtz Leman. Is there really any documentation that these two Lancaster,Pa companies passed work between themselves ( i.e., did Henry do some of the better engraving for Leman, etc?). Somehow, I can't see the illustrated gun coming out of Leman's shop)

Shreckmeister · « **Reply #11 on:** January 17, 2021, 12:23:32 AM »

A pleasure to see. Thanks for sharing them. Variety is the spice of life.

mr. no gold · « **Reply #12 on:** January 17, 2021, 01:46:54 AM »

Until now, a Leman rifle was just a Leman rifle; cheap, no variation to speak of, with nothing much noteworthy about them. Interesting perhaps as a fur trade era item and maybe collect one or two just because... A true KY collector would not bother much. Well, it appears that sometimes you have to have a forest to see the trees. What a great collection of what most from the Lancaster area refer to as a 'Lancaster Rifle.' I have learned a lot from this presentation of Leman rifles and will not look down my nose at one ever again. Thank you for enlightening us on the Leman Rifle and its desirability as a good collectible gun.
Dick

Taylorz1 · « **Reply #13 on:** January 17, 2021, 06:33:04 AM »

Thanks again to everyone for the kind comments. Collecting Leman rifles is kinda like collecting 788 remingtons in that you have to find satisfaction in their simple utilitarianism and excitement in small variations. As far as the Eicholtz Brothers- I think its probably fair to say that in a collection of 20 Leman rifles there could be 20 different gunstockers represented. I think Leman used their own parts when they could but think they used hardware and locks from wherever they could find them to keep guns going out the door. So with a large workforce of gunstockers who may or may not only be working under the roof of HE leman are using parts universally available to any gunmaker it is hard to pick out any particular defining features. The three guns here are a good example of that- one is Marked Eicholtz Lancaster, one is Marked Eicholtz and Bro Lancaster Pa and the third is marked Leman Lancaster Warranted. The Leman and one Eicholtz marked gun have Leman marked locks and the third lock is unmarked. The Leman and one of the Eicholtz guns have identical buttplate, toeplate, drums, sights and ramrod pipes. The screws holding the butt plates and tang on the Eicholtz and Leman marked gun can be interchanged- that is not even true on other Leman marked guns of similar form I have. The muzzle filing on these two leman and Eicholtz marked guns is the same- i think this was generally done freehand by the filer and the treatment is identical. I strongly suspect these two guns were made by the same person. Does that mean the two companies were somehow deeply associated, or the same company under different names, or just an example of one gunsmith working under two roofs ? I have no idea. One interesting thing to note is the two Eicholtz marked guns are dis-similar in the length of the wrist (shorter wrists) to the Leman pictured. Most of the Lemans i have have a longer wrist in comparison but I do have a Leman marked gun with the identical shorter wrist. So who knows !? I only have these two Eicholtz marked guns but the they are identical in all respects to the Leman marked guns in terms of fit/finish and overall quality. I also included a pic of what I meant by typical Leman rifling. I shoot a lot of these old guns and this one is a real shooter having won matches and accounted for some fine dinners.

Taylorz1 · « **Reply #14 on:** January 17, 2021, 06:37:56 AM »

Upside down pictures again. Sorry. One thing I forgot to mention- i can take a rubbing of “Lancaster” on the “Eicholtz Lancaster” marked gun and overlay it on my Leman Lancaster marked guns. Its identical font and size. Made by the same stamp make or is it the same stamp ? No idea but either is possible I think.

OLUT · « **Reply #15 on:** January 17, 2021, 08:13:52 PM »

Quote from: Taylorz1 on January 17, 2021, 06:37:56 AM

Upside down pictures again. Sorry. One thing I forgot to mention- i can take a rubbing of “Lancaster” on the “Eicholtz Lancaster” marked gun and overlay it on my Leman Lancaster marked guns. Its identical font and size. Made by the same stamp make or is it the same stamp ? No idea but either is possible I think.

I appreciate your excellent side-by-side comparison of Eichholtz & Leman guns . Being able to view them together sure beats merely seeing a couple catalog images. Rather than bog down this topic, I'll send you a private mail message on some of my questions & thoughts ....... OLUT

FALout · « **Reply #16 on:** January 18, 2021, 12:20:46 AM »

Hope I don’t sound ignorant asking this about Leman’s, but did they usually use washers on lock bolts or did they use a certain style of a side plate?
Bob

Taylorz1 · « **Reply #17 on:** January 18, 2021, 07:18:28 AM »

All good questions start in ignorance amigo. Thats what makes them good questions. The only bad type of ignorance is the type you never try to remedy. Im no expert on these guns but If I can help find an answer Im happy to. Most all of my Leman marked percussion guns have this style of washer for the lock bolt. The lock bolts generally have a tall dome and the more off center the head is to the shaft the better haha.

R.J.Bruce · « **Reply #18 on:** January 19, 2021, 03:27:08 PM »

What I find interesting is that it is possible to build a HC percussion Leman rifle with a flat, or relatively flat, buttplate. Something I have never seen a builder do since I have been interested in muzzleloading rifles, 1971.

Everyone always uses a wicked hooked buttplate, which I do not care for.

Panzerschwein · « **Reply #19 on:** January 19, 2021, 07:01:48 PM »

When life gives you Lemans, make... smoke! LOL!

Seriously, amazing collection and beautiful rifles! Got to love the faux maple stripes on some original Lemans. Those not in the know about them might be mortified to see a modern maker use such a technique, but same as today as back then, they loved their striped maple and it was a way to do it!

scottmc · « **Reply #20 on:** January 20, 2021, 01:58:56 AM »

A member of my club (Lancaster Muzzle loading Rifle Association) presented his master's thesis from 1969 to us at one of our meetings. He graduated from Franklin and Marshall which is in Lancaster and his thesis was entitled, "Henry Eicholtz Leman and His Production of the Pennsylvania Rifle." This thesis was also printed in the Journal of the Lancaster Historical Society. I asked Sam if I could share it here and he was more than happy for me to do that. I will get it scanned and then upload it under a new thread entitled same.

To you older collectors, Sam is the nephew of Vince Nolt who used to have an antique gun museum in Strasburg, PA with an extensive collection of longrifles. Sam told me today that he has sold off all his rifles which comprised great pieces such as Beck, Dreppard, Brandt, Gumpf, etc but the one rifle he kept is...you guessed it, A Leman.

jdm · « **Reply #21 on:** January 20, 2021, 03:49:54 AM »

Very nice collection of Leman rifles . I've always had a soft spot for these. Thank you for letting us see them.

Scottmc, Vince & Helen Nolt were wonderful people. Always welcoming at the shows . I missed seeing the Eagle museum by a couple of years. I know they had some great Kentucky's in it.

OLUT · « **Reply #22 on:** January 20, 2021, 04:16:28 AM »

Quote from: scottmc on January 20, 2021, 01:58:56 AM

A member of my club (Lancaster Muzzle loading Rifle Association) presented his master's thesis from 1969 to us at one of our meetings. He graduated from Franklin and Marshall which is in Lancaster and his thesis was entitled, "Henry Eicholtz Leman and His Production of the Pennsylvania Rifle." This thesis was also printed in the Journal of the Lancaster Historical Society. I asked Sam if I could share it here and he was more than happy for me to do that. I will get it scanned and then upload it under a new thread entitled same.

To you older collectors, Sam is the nephew of Vince Nolt who used to have an antique gun museum in Strasburg, PA with an extensive collection of longrifles. Sam told me today that he has sold off all his rifles which comprised great pieces such as Beck, Dreppard, Brandt, Gumpf, etc but the one rifle he kept is...you guessed it, A Leman.

Like many others, I am quite interested in reading the thesis on Leman !!! ....Yup, I'm an "older collector" and went to the 2 day gun auction portion of the Eagle Museum in June 1984. My buddy & I couldn't outbid the "Kentucky rifle" collectors but we did pick up a few other interesting pieces. To set the record straight, Vince Nolt sold 8 Leman guns ( including a side by side combination gun that I had never seen before or since) and 1 Conestoga Rifle Works gun. The Leman Lot #733 sold for $1700 and was cataloged with the notation,"This rifle, purchased in 1950, was the beginning of the entire Nolt collection". Also, a quote from the local newspaper at the time indicated that the childless Nolts sold off the vast collection as "none of our nieces and nephews (were) too interested in maintaining the museum...."

Clark Badgett · « **Reply #23 on:** April 07, 2021, 04:45:39 AM »

I took these photos of some Lemans in the JM Davis museum in Claremore, OK this afternoon. Sorry that I couldn’t get better pictures. The first 4 are of a .53cal full stock that had a square ended tang and the barrel looked like it might have been lightly swamped.

cshirsch · « **Reply #24 on:** April 10, 2021, 12:20:16 AM »

I only have a couple of Lemans still in my collection. This one actually came off a reservation in Oklahoma around 1900. A man would take a wagon full of salt onto the resrvations and trade it for old guns. His name was Sartain. This Leman came from his great grandson.

News:

Author Topic: A few Leman rifles (Read 7986 times)