Author Topic: Questions for a Geo. Washington pistol build (Read 2489 times)

WestBranchSusquehanna · « **on:** January 27, 2021, 07:28:52 PM »

Thought for my next project, I'd build either one or a matched pair of George Washington pistols and case.
Trying to find a source for parts is a bit daunting especially for brass barrels. (TOTW has a lot to offer but I have no idea what goes with what.) I am in no ways a machinist. I can file to shape of course and really want to be a close to the originals as possible. Is there a source for parts, plans, etc.?

smart dog · « **Reply #1 on:** January 27, 2021, 09:26:20 PM »

Hi,
There are quite a few pistols supposedly (real or imagined) owned by Washington. Which one or pair? If the pistols you have in mind are any that he might have used during the Rev War, rather than gifts long afterward, they likely would not have been sold with a lined wooden case. They probably were packed in a woolen bag called a "shoddy".

dave

WestBranchSusquehanna · « **Reply #2 on:** January 27, 2021, 10:25:46 PM »

There are several pair of surviving pistols. The ones given to him by Lafayette and very fancy are beyond my skill level. However, the Brass barrel Hawken pair really please my eye. Apparently, one of them was loaded incorrectly by a servant in the 1800's and blew apart. Many pictures of that pair but of course no dimensions or details that would be of interest to us. There have been a lot of cheap reproductions made of these guns but, not worth looking into them.
So, maybe I should have asked for more information as to suppliers of English Hawken pistol parts.
Thanks

jerrywh · « **Reply #3 on:** January 27, 2021, 10:53:46 PM »

Almost all the parts you will need you will not be able to buy. I specialize in pistols and parts for French, English, and European pistols are usually not available and when they are you will probably not want to pay the price. Nobody I am aware of is casting silver except maybe Blackley and Son. You will need patterns for them. When I made mine I cast all my own parts and made all my own patterns. I am now making a double French flintlock pistol. Not one single part was available. Not even a screw.
Also letting that type of butt cap is a real challenge. The best of luck. I have some Naval Brass for making the barrels if you are interested. Not to discourage you but that is the way it is. Ron Scott might be of help.

Rajin cajun · « **Reply #4 on:** January 27, 2021, 11:01:18 PM »

Didn’t the US Historical Society produce a set of these Washington pistols in 1976 ?

Bob

Rajin cajun · « **Reply #5 on:** January 27, 2021, 11:43:25 PM »

USHistorical Society

smart dog · « **Reply #6 on:** January 28, 2021, 12:42:24 AM »

Hi,
The pistols were probably by John Hawkins (not Hawken) although the barrels are marked "RW" likely for Richard Wilson. The lock is from the late 1740s so they must have been made near the end of Hawkins' career. I think some repros of the pistols were made in Europe some years ago and sold in the US by the U. S. Historical Society and sold in a case. The rifle shop sells castings for the butt cap, trigger guard, side plate, and thumb plate that are very close to the originals. It is their series 589 butt cap and end cap, and their series 615 trigger guard, side plate, and wrist plate. However, I suspect they are all cast either in brass or steel. You might be able to have them cast is sterling silver but it could take a while.

dave

WestBranchSusquehanna · « **Reply #7 on:** January 28, 2021, 02:33:03 AM »

Quote from: smart dog on January 28, 2021, 12:42:24 AM

Hi,
The pistols were probably by John Hawkins (not Hawken) although the barrels are marked "RW" likely for Richard Wilson. The lock is from the late 1740s so they must have been made near the end of Hawkins' career. I think some repros of the pistols were made in Europe some years ago and sold in the US by the U. S. Historical Society and sold in a case. The rifle shop sells castings for the butt cap, trigger guard, side plate, and thumb plate that are very close to the originals. It is their series 589 butt cap and end cap, and their series 615 trigger guard, side plate, and wrist plate. However, I suspect they are all cast either in brass or steel. You might be able to have them cast is sterling silver but it could take a while.

dave

Dave,
This is exactly what I was looking for. I've ordered once from them and they didn't cross my mind and of course they didn't come up on any searches. Sent an email and hopefully in the near future will begin this build.
Now to locate the proper accruements to go into the case.............

smart dog · « **Reply #8 on:** January 28, 2021, 04:19:38 AM »

Hi Michael,
There would be no accessories for a case because the pistols would not have been furnished in a case. They would be sold in woolen shoddies. A shoddy was a mitt or holster made from recycled scrap wool. Lined wooden cases with accessories began to be furnished in the late 1760s and did not become typical until the late 1770s, 30 years after the Hawkins' pistols were made. Any wooden case associated with the pistols today is a later addition. Moreover, British cases were not lined with felt and rarely velvet (until the 19th century). The earliest wooden cases were lined with wall paper. They also were made from deal wood (Scots pine) and covered with leather. Oak and mahogany cases lined with woolen baize (not felt) became popular during the 1770s and replaced the earlier styles. Don't confuse these pistols with later British dueling pistols. They were horse pistols and meant to be carried in leather holsters attached to a saddle. Much of the information found online about these pistols is ignorant junk.

dave

rick/pa · « **Reply #9 on:** January 28, 2021, 04:29:16 AM »

Hello Michael, I believe the pistols given him by LaFayette are in the Fort Ligonier museum. I see you're from Williamsport which is several hours drive from Ligonier but I have seen the pistols there. Whether it would be worthwhile to take a drive there is up to you. They are displayed in the home picture......https://www.fortligonier.org/museum/george-washington-gallery/

Clint · « **Reply #10 on:** January 28, 2021, 04:58:01 AM »

"BRASS" in the historic sense is an alloy made from copper and zinc. In the modern world, the word brass is similar to the word sports, that is there are dozens & dozens of brass \ /bronze alloys and each one has advantages and characteristics . A good choice for muzzle loading pistols would be 464 naval bronze. Silica bronze would make a good barrel , but it is very red in color.Without a lathe, you could present a detailed drawing to a local machine shop and ask them about cost and feasability to turn and bore the barrels. Last note for 464 is that stress relief heating at 500 F will maximize strength for this alloy.CW

jerrywh · « **Reply #11 on:** January 28, 2021, 05:25:20 AM »

These pistols are sometimes found on Gunbroker for around $1600.00 Also the ones like Wgdon may be found also.

WestBranchSusquehanna · « **Reply #12 on:** February 04, 2021, 09:27:22 PM »

Well,I appreciate all the advise I have been given from this site. Have scoured the vendors, tried many times via email and phone to contact the Rifle Shoppe without any replies, and looked at parts that can be had from all the usual sources. Casting and a lot of machining is beyond my skill level. I'm okay with carving, shaping and engraving but, I guess I'm somewhere between a scratch and a kit builder.
Still, I'd like to build a pistol similar to the Geo. Washington guns. (I like the sleek looks of both the Hawkins [English] and the Lafayette ones.) I have some beautiful walnut for the stocks and can work a file to achieve shapes needed.
As stated, the Rifle Shoppe hasn't replied so, they seem to be out of the question for now.

Are there any part packages for such a gun that someone has experience building?
Thanks

jerrywh · « **Reply #13 on:** February 04, 2021, 09:39:17 PM »

TRS sells or used to sell a set of parts for an English pistol by Moses Brent. It is nicer than the Washington pistols by far. Get in touch with Ron Scott. he seems to have a connection with the rifle shop. The kit is in Brass but could be silver plated. I know where you can have it silver plated.

WestBranchSusquehanna · « **Reply #14 on:** February 04, 2021, 10:50:16 PM »

Quote from: jerrywh on February 04, 2021, 09:39:17 PM

TRS sells or used to sell a set of parts for an English pistol by Moses Brent. It is nicer than the Washington pistols by far. Get in touch with Ron Scott. he seems to have a connection with the rifle shop. The kit is in Brass but could be silver plated. I know where you can have it silver plated.

Jerry, thanks. I sent Ron a PM. Hopefully I'll hear back from him soon.

smart dog · « **Reply #15 on:** February 05, 2021, 02:23:53 AM »

Hi Mike,
Keep calling TRS and leave messages. Ask for Jane. I have been having very good experiences with them since they moved. I believe you may get what you want from them if you can be patient. I suspect they can get parts cast in silver but you will have to wait for a foundry run and that can be months. Mike, I appreciate your desire to build those kinds of pistols. I have the same ambitions and I am afraid we have to figure out much of the hardware making on our own.

dave

Ron Scott · « **Reply #16 on:** February 05, 2021, 02:29:11 AM »

Michael, PM sent

WestBranchSusquehanna · « **Reply #17 on:** February 05, 2021, 02:38:18 AM »

A few hours after my post today getting a little frustrated, Jane called me from TRS. Looks like I am on to my next build.
TRS is apparently a one line phone system and Jane apologized that she did receive my email inquiry but was waiting to get a few answers for me and it kind of went to the side.
I have some walnut and there are a few pieces of crotch that will make for some beautiful stock. I believe it was sawn and put up in a rack over 30 years ago so should be stable enough. Once I get parts, cut out the blank and get my wits together, I'll start another post on my attempt to build this gun. Later.....

Justin Urbantas · « **Reply #18 on:** February 07, 2021, 07:06:13 AM »

Quote from: jerrywh on February 04, 2021, 09:39:17 PM

TRS sells or used to sell a set of parts for an English pistol by Moses Brent. It is nicer than the Washington pistols by far. Get in touch with Ron Scott. he seems to have a connection with the rifle shop. The kit is in Brass but could be silver plated. I know where you can have it silver plated.

Hey Jerry, where do you get parts silver plated?

Mesingw · « **Reply #19 on:** February 09, 2021, 05:46:16 AM »

Mike
Washington’s saddle pistols from Lafayette

Octagonal to round barrel w/o wedding band. One pistol with a front sight post and one without.
The guns are both 17.5 inches long with smooth bore barrels of about .57 caliber.
The barrels are 11.5 inches long and are made from wrought-iron.
They are both stocked in unfigured walnut.
My observations.
Only 1 pistol has a front sight and obviously more wear and use than the other one w/o a sight. The touch hole is almost twice as large in size than the other. The foreshock has been completely broken off at the front rod pipe at its front mounting pin and reattached.The grip hold has been broken off about in the middle of the hand / contact hold area and reattached. The unsighted gun also has a cracked stock in the hand hold area. The sighted gun was probably used significantly more than the unsighted gun thus showing more wear, burning out the touch hole and developing breakage in 2 obvious areas. There is no sign that there was ever a sight on the one gun as there is engraving completely over the area where a sight would have been with no sign that one was there and was knocked off.
The guns themselves were made by French gunsmith Jacob Walster between 1775 and 1777
I had several dozen pictures of them up close and at all angles, that I took before I built a copy but I’ll be !@*%&@ if I can find them now. Sorry. I never found a good source or copy for parts and only got close.
Dave

jerrywh · « **Reply #20 on:** February 09, 2021, 07:33:50 AM »

Justin. PM sent. Jerrywh.

WestBranchSusquehanna · « **Reply #21 on:** February 11, 2021, 08:12:59 PM »

Quote from: Mesingw on February 09, 2021, 05:46:16 AM

Mike
Washington’s saddle pistols from Lafayette

Octagonal to round barrel w/o wedding band. One pistol with a front sight post and one without.
The guns are both 17.5 inches long with smooth bore barrels of about .57 caliber.
The barrels are 11.5 inches long and are made from wrought-iron.
They are both stocked in unfigured walnut.
My observations.
Only 1 pistol has a front sight and obviously more wear and use than the other one w/o a sight. The touch hole is almost twice as large in size than the other. The foreshock has been completely broken off at the front rod pipe at its front mounting pin and reattached.The grip hold has been broken off about in the middle of the hand / contact hold area and reattached. The unsighted gun also has a cracked stock in the hand hold area. The sighted gun was probably used significantly more than the unsighted gun thus showing more wear, burning out the touch hole and developing breakage in 2 obvious areas. There is no sign that there was ever a sight on the one gun as there is engraving completely over the area where a sight would have been with no sign that one was there and was knocked off.
The guns themselves were made by French gunsmith Jacob Walster between 1775 and 1777
I had several dozen pictures of them up close and at all angles, that I took before I built a copy but I’ll be !@*%&@ if I can find them now. Sorry. I never found a good source or copy for parts and only got close.
Dave

Dave,
I am familiar with that pair and actually they are just a few hours away from house but, I really like the look of the brass barrel ones that are at Mt. Vernon. I received an answer from someone there replying to my request for pictures of the gun from different angles so I could see the wire inlay, carvings etc.and offered to pay for them. They responded that they DO NOT send out to individuals such items. Guess you have to have a lot of letters after your name to get information. Now if I went to Washington and visited Mt. Vernon, I could take them myself with a cell phone and that's all I need. Geez!
Oh, well, I am starting to find resources for most of the parts and the finer details will come, I'm sure. Just have to keep looking around.
Thanks to all who have responded as well.
Later,

Carl Young · « **Reply #22 on:** February 11, 2021, 08:50:33 PM »

Hi Michael, If you think a lot of credentials would get you a response, I would be glad to make the request for you as a "bonafide researcher" whatever the heck that might be. Just let me know.

I look forward to hearing of your progress on this project.

Regards,
Carl
Professor, Mississippi State University

WestBranchSusquehanna · « **Reply #23 on:** February 11, 2021, 09:36:49 PM »

Quote from: Carl Young on February 11, 2021, 08:50:33 PM

Hi Michael, If you think a lot of credentials would get you a response, I would be glad to make the request for you as a "bonafide researcher" whatever the heck that might be. Just let me know.

I look forward to hearing of your progress on this project.

Regards,
Carl
Professor, Mississippi State University

PM Sent. Thanks

Carl Young · « **Reply #24 on:** February 11, 2021, 11:30:07 PM »

Michael FYI no message received yet.
Carl

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Author Topic: Questions for a Geo. Washington pistol build (Read 2489 times)

Mesingw