Author Topic: A question on folding knives  (Read 2190 times)

Offline Elnathan

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A question on folding knives
« on: January 27, 2021, 10:58:00 PM »
Howdy!

I'm thinking about trying my hand at a folding knife or two, specifically the pistol-gripped type with a spring and metal handles, such as this one: db172d71b73147a4d48600c43d4169f3" border="0

The problem is, while is is pretty easy to get dimensions and side-views off the 'net and from Neumann's Swords and Blades, getting am idea of how thick the blades and bolsters should be is rather more difficult. I'm guessing no more than 1/16" for the blade and 1/8" for the bolsters, possibly much thinner, particularly at the tail, depending on the size of the knife. Does anyone have an original that they'd be willing to measure or provide a photo from above?
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: A question on folding knives
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2021, 04:58:47 PM »
 If Brian sees this he may be able to help you.

   https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=53373.msg533461#msg533461

   Tim C.

Offline Bob McBride

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Re: A question on folding knives
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2021, 05:34:48 PM »
Yep, def BB can help. He’s got several originals and has made some super copies.

Offline heinz

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Re: A question on folding knives
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2021, 06:56:08 PM »
Elnathan, I have a Scott Summerville folding knife he based on an original.  The original from its location was likely a Hudsons Bay Company product 

The construction on my folder is blade and back spring .090 inches,  side plates, .090 at the thickest, the sideplates are one piece with the bolsters filed directly on the side plate and an inlet cut into the sideplate for the scales.  The front is filed down to approximately .075 for the rounded bolster, and the back is a bit fatter.  Total folded outside width is .280 at the front and .310 at the back

I will PM you Scott's email. I am sure he would provide details.  Great guy devoted to historical knifemaking







« Last Edit: January 29, 2021, 07:00:36 PM by heinz »
kind regards, heinz

Offline Elnathan

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Re: A question on folding knives
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2021, 10:04:37 PM »
Thank you for taking the time to measure your knife for me, Heinz. Those are very helpful dimensions, and somewhat different from what I expected. I will drop a line to Mr. Summerville.

I will also shoot Brian Barker a message, since I haven't seen him around lately.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling

Offline jrb

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Re: A question on folding knives
« Reply #5 on: February 01, 2021, 12:11:45 AM »
I've been wanting to do them too, using iron for the bolsters, but have been watching ebay for a few years now hoping to get a "dug" condition example to copy, but they're selling for too much $ for me.
 There used to be a video of Eric Schatzel forging the bolsters from real wrought iron. He's so good at it, they apparently barely need filing. I just tried to find it for you, to give you a link, but i guess it's taken down.
 There's a fellow here in Ohio that has several originals from the Scioto, Mad river, Miami river,  native village sites and one of them, while open, is about 12" total length. I'd love to repro that one !  :)

Offline B.Barker

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Re: A question on folding knives
« Reply #6 on: February 01, 2021, 09:20:56 PM »
All the original folders like that that I have seen the bolsters are very thin. Blades are usually around an 1/8" and bolsters that or maybe a bit thinner. The grips are a bit thicker than the bolsters. The trick to make this style of knife is getting the radius on the bolsters. The originals have no flat spot on the outside. Also the originals are one piece liner and bolsters as far as I can tell. I've made one like these for the CLA auction years ago. I think Art Riser was the winner but not sure.

Offline Marcruger

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Re: A question on folding knives
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2021, 04:32:14 AM »
I enjoyed this thread.  I was watching an archaeology program in England, and they dug up one lost during the English civil war.  I did not realize that a pattern such as that went back so far.  Mid-1600s.   God Bless,   Marc

Offline jrb

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Re: A question on folding knives
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2021, 01:20:40 AM »
here's a pdf to the Pittsburg waste book (fort Pitt) june 1759 to june 1760.
 They record lots of cutteau (folding knives) being sold to Ohio Country Wyandots, Mingos, Delawares, etc.
More cutteaus by far than other knives.
I'm trying to figure out what type he's referring to as "pistol capt. knives".
Pistol capt. knives are listed in most 18th century Sheffield advertisements but what are they exactly? Are they the style folding knives shown in the photos in this thread?

https://digital.library.pitt.edu/islandora/object/pitt%3A31735061278424/viewer#page/1/mode/1up
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 01:47:30 AM by jrb »

Offline heinz

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Re: A question on folding knives
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2021, 04:17:59 AM »
JRB, My understanding is that a "cutteau" is a butcher knife style of blade.  They're sold with or without handles. 
Do you have information that the cutteau in the Fort Pitt Waste book refers specifically to folding knives?
kind regards, heinz

Offline jrb

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Re: A question on folding knives
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2021, 04:00:33 PM »
Hi Heinz.
 This article is what convinced me cutteaus, cuttoes and various spellings of the word seem to be usually referring to folding knives.
 Also though, i've read the word was sometimes used for hunting swords, but the low prices of the Fort Pitt entries can't be for swords, i think.

https://ofsortsforprovincials.blogspot.com/search?updated-max=2013-06-26T13:09:00-07:00&max-results=7&start=18&by-date=false

Offline jrb

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Re: A question on folding knives
« Reply #11 on: February 04, 2021, 05:30:51 PM »
Heinz, i've got nothing specific to actually prove the cutteaus being referred to in the Pitt wastebook are for sure folders.
Also re-reading the link i posted above that had convinced me cutteau, cottoe, were folders has me seriously doubting it now. the one that had it clinched for me was this one.


But, i now see the word "ditto", although under "knives", is NOT under "spring".
also, why would this entry list both "spring knives"
 and "cuttoe knives" if they were the same type knives.
Thanks
John






Offline Elnathan

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Re: A question on folding knives
« Reply #12 on: February 04, 2021, 06:55:01 PM »
For what it is worth, I just went and had a look at an article on the European artifacts recovered from the Cherokee town Chota in Tennessee, and it reports that fifty-four clasp knives have been found, all but two of them of roughly the type under discussion (the other two being the French style), plus a bunch of fragments. In contrast, only eight  sheath knives were found. These finds range from probably around 1735 up through the end of the 18th century, but the town had shrunk to only a few houses by 1783, so most of the finds are probably from before 1775, when it was burned by the American forces at the beginning of the Revolution.

I doubt the proportion of clasp knives versus sheath knives found represent the real proportions of these knives in use - I note that some of these came from burials, and items buried with their owners are likely chosen for symbolic reasons and may not directly represent what was actually owned and used by the deceased in life Plus, Cherokee burials from this site with grave goods skew heavily towards children under 13 with far fewer adolescent/adult graves having anything besides the body, for some reason.

Nevertheless, I think that the finds do indicate that folding knives were available and appreciated along the frontier. I've noticed that fixed blade trade knives of the butcher /scalper pattern don't seem to come much shorter than 6" and most are closer to 7" or 8," so I suspect that the folding knives satisfied the need for a smaller knife used for those myriad of tasks that don't involve slicing up dead animals or live people.
A man can never have too much red wine, too many books, or too much ammunition -  Rudyard Kipling