Author Topic: Balancing cock / frizzen  (Read 2220 times)

Offline Dave R

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 678
Balancing cock / frizzen
« on: January 28, 2021, 05:52:59 AM »
I have read that a properly balanced flintlock action that the frizzen should take 25% effort to open of whatever poundage it takes to cock the cock! Lockmakers / builders is this correct?? I have considered buying a spring scale however I don't know what range of spring scale I should buy?? Please get me up to speed. ;)

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 859
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2021, 06:06:06 AM »
Good question, I’d be interested in knowing too.
Richard

Offline Clint

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #2 on: January 28, 2021, 06:27:49 AM »
If the geometry of the lock is close, that is if the flint is cutting the frizzen at a nice angle and sort of high, the frizzen spring can be eliminated. When you get good sparks with no spring , you add the spring so that the pan stays covered and the frizzen doesn't swing around at will. I don't know about pounds, the frizzen needs a little resistance for spark and enough snap to keep the prime from spilling.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7019
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #3 on: January 28, 2021, 04:10:25 PM »
Hi Dave,
When I balance the springs, I start with the force needed to open the frizzen being about 30% of the force required to pull the cock back from rest to full cock.  I measure those forces with a small digital luggage scale.  However, that is just my starting point and the geometry of the lock can alter those forces.  For example, if the lock has a large large tall frizzen on which a flint gets a long scrape, I may want the force to open it lower than my starting point.  In contrast, if the frizzen is small and throw of the cock short, like on late English flintlocks, I tend to want stronger force to open the frizzen.  Jerry is right that the frizzen spring just has to be strong enough to hold the pan cover closed, however, I've experimented a lot with these forces.  I find that idea works fine until the frizzen gets covered with fouling.  That is when you want more resistance from the frizzen spring to allow the flint to scrape through the greasy fouling and make sparks. When I tune a lock, I am not thinking of how fast it is on the first shot, rather how fast and reliable it is on the 20th or 30th shot when the lock is dirty and flint worn.  I used to start with a ratio of 25% but after experimenting and more experience with different locks firing under a variety of conditions, I upped that initial ratio to 30% and may go a little higher in the future.  The photos below show a Chambers round-faced English lock that I tuned.  The frizzen force is about 25% of the mainspring force because the frizzen is tall and the flint makes a long scrape. The first photo is using a clean, sharp flint.  In the second, the flint was reversed so the dull side faced the frizzen.  In the third photo, the dull flint and frizzen are covered with inletting black and soot.  Finally, for the last 2 photos, I used a rounded piece of quartz from my driveway as a flint.  The frizzen and rock were clean when fired.  That is the kind of performance I want from a flintlock.

dave
 















"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Darkhorse

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1665
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2021, 09:15:08 AM »
I take a simpler approach. I have had locks that jarred the rifle so hard I could see the sights actually move off target during the ignition process. I have observed this when using set triggers. Single triggers operate different and any jarring is not so obvious.
After much experimenting I have set my personal values which have nothing to do with percentages, only the value that provides me a smooth, jarrless ignition.
For set triggers I want my frizzen to open at 4 pounds as measured with a trigger gauge.
For single triggers I find 6 to 8 pounds to be sufficient.
Of course your mileage may differ in which case shooting and testing is in order.
American horses of Arabian descent.

Offline rich pierce

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19546
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2021, 04:55:04 PM »
Where is the scale attached on the cock and where/how on the frizzen?
Andover, Vermont

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7019
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2021, 11:16:07 PM »
Hi Rich,
As close to the top of the frizzen as possible and on the top jaw screw.  The placement is not important as long as you are consistent.  In my case, I am not looking at the absolute force required for either action but the proportion of one to the other.  I usually start my measuring the mainspring and then work on the frizzen spring to reach my goal. 

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Scota4570

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2402
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2021, 11:29:53 PM »
One thing to keep in mind is that if the frizzen spring is too weak the frizzen will bounce back and self close on the flint.  That can damage the flint. 

Offline northup87

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2021, 12:00:21 AM »
This is a really helpful thread, I have played with the frizzen spring weight, but never worked thru the proper ratios between the main and frizzen spring. I like darkhorse was simply trying to make it easier to keep on target with a late english that seemed to buck when set triggers tripped! Thank you for sharing the collective knowledge.
A.J. Downey

Offline pilot

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2021, 07:08:59 AM »
What is the easiest way to reduce the frizzen spring strength?

Offline smylee grouch

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7911
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2021, 07:18:46 AM »
Would a cool grind/stone/hone at the bend weaken it some if you did it slow and in small steps? :-\

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7019
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2021, 02:56:49 PM »
What is the easiest way to reduce the frizzen spring strength?
Hi,
Just grind a bevel on the outside edge of the upper leaf of the spring or thin the leaf overall.  Grind a little and dip in water to cool it.  Frizzen springs are very forgiving with respect to hardness and temper because they don't move very much.




dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline pilot

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 69
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #12 on: March 12, 2021, 03:51:12 PM »
Thank you.  I've been watching a bunch of videos trying to see what normally is done and most involved retempering.  They really didn't get into how to adjust them. 

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #13 on: March 12, 2021, 07:53:33 PM »
In my opinion, people tend to overthink this. I don't think there is a percentage of pressure answer for several reasons. If you take the frizzen spring off you will discover that the lock will spark better than ever. Therefore I believe the frizzen only requires enough tension to keep the powder from spilling out.
If it is a hunting gun that will be carried through the bushes it needs a fairly strong spring. But if it is for target or dueling it probably needs a fairly week one. Just my loco logic. Most guns I have built had a fairly week spring compared to an original English lock.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline D. Taylor Sapergia

  • Member 3
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 12671
Re: Balancing cock / frizzen
« Reply #14 on: March 12, 2021, 07:59:19 PM »
When grinding on a spring to lessen its strength, remember that removing thickness as opposed to removing width, lessens the strength EIGHT TIMES FASTER.  Stay away from the bend.  Remove the metal from the flat leaves.  Cutting bevels along the outward edge is a good way to start, as Dave has pointed out.
D. Taylor Sapergia
www.sapergia.blogspot.com

Art is not an object.  It is the excitement inspired by the object.