Rifle for NMLRA Off-Hand Matches

[Sheppsan]

Looking to get involved in local club's off-hand matches and wondering stock design, caliber, barrel length, profile, weight, etc.  Looking for the rifle to fit the in the Traditional Offhand Hunting Rife category.  Know there will be varying opinions, but would appreciate any suggestions, etc.

Much appreciated, Dale

[Stoner creek]

Handle some guns. Shoot them if you can. We’re all made different. You’re going to find something that holds and shoots just right.
 That’s where you start.

[smylee grouch]

Stoner creek summed it up pretty well but I would add that I would want a cal. able to handle 100 yds. in a breeze with out a lot of Kentucky windage.

[A.Merrill]

   Back when I was shooting I knew several state and national champions and they all shot .45cal and .50cal. I think the best all around size is .50cal.   Al

[Leatherbark]

There is an article in the N.M.L.R.A archives by Max Vickery.  He is the guy the offhand range at Friendship is named after.  Look it up.  I cannot remember how it is titled.  Something maybe like "Thoughts on offhand shooting"?  It it he talks about barrel length and weight being a factor.  He also states that a percussion rifle will always shoot smaller offhand groups than a flintlock...........(His words not mine).

 Seems he liked a rifle with a barrel of about 36 to 38 inches of sufficient diameter.  IIRC he also touted holding dead on the bullseye and not using 6 oclock hold............I am not 100% sure of all of these statements are correct. It has been a long time since I read the article.

Bob

[little joe]

There is an article in the N.M.L.R.A archives by Max Vickery.  He is the guy the offhand range at Friendship is named after.  Look it up.  I cannot remember how it is titled.  Something maybe like "Thoughts on offhand shooting"?  It it he talks about barrel length and weight being a factor.  He also states that a percussion rifle will always shoot smaller offhand groups than a flintlock...........(His words not mine).

 Seems he liked a rifle with a barrel of about 36 to 38 inches of sufficient diameter.  IIRC he also touted holding dead on the bullseye and not using 6 oclock hold............I am not 100% sure of all of these statements are correct. It has been a long time since I read the article.
 Good advice
Bob

[RichG]

muzzle loading shooting and winning with the champions has an article by Max Vickery. "Placing in the offhand matches" lots of info if you can find a copy.

[Tim Ault]

If you are just starting into competition practicing  stance /form breathing ect is more important than the rifle type and shape caliber and the rest of the rifle . Take the rifle you have now draw a 1/2 dot on a paper and hang it on the wall in the house , step back till that dot is optically the size of your bull in the competition  the practice touching that trigger . Do that over and over and over

[bob in the woods]

Handle some guns. Shoot them if you can. We’re all made different. You’re going to find something that holds and shoots just right.
 That’s where you start.

Great advice.  I've had a couple of guns through the years that just never felt "right"  Others just naturally held well.  Length of pull, drop, barrel weight, length, balance....you will have to figure out what works for you.

[Jeff Murray]

You might also consider your sensitivity to recoil.  40 and 45 caliber rifles are kinder that  way and are more than adequate for paper targets.  Barrel length and  weight also affect recoil and how the rifle "hangs".  The suggestion to try and shoot some rifles is a great idea. Maybe some of the shooters in your local club would let you shoot at the end of the match?  Good luck.

[Sheppsan]

Appreciate all the suggestions.  Have been trying to handle some rifles but it is a little more difficult with the Covid environment.  Most I have shot were Hawken like and had severe crescent butt plates and do not really like the position you need to adopt for that.  Used to shooting M1 Garands and Lee Enfields in competition and would like to maintain a similar stance/position if possible, so a less curved butt plate would be better I'm thinking.  Will try to find the article Little Joe.  Take care all.

 

[Daryl]

I find a rifle in this style to be the best shooting.  A long rifle of the rev. period or slightly afterwards, with  relatively flat butt (called shotgun butt today) is also a comfortable shooting design.
Many people find a long rifle with a swamped barrel, hold the best for offhand shooting. Others, like myself, prefer the Jaeger or English Sporting rifle design. I personally prefer this type, with
or without a swamped barrel, but 9 to 9 1/2 pounds just feels right.










 

[alacran]

Appreciate all the suggestions.  Have been trying to handle some rifles but it is a little more difficult with the Covid environment.  Most I have shot were Hawken like and had severe crescent butt plates and do not really like the position you need to adopt for that.  Used to shooting M1 Garands and Lee Enfields in competition and would like to maintain a similar stance/position if possible, so a less curved butt plate would be better I'm thinking.  Will try to find the article Little Joe.  Take care all.

 Hawkens shoot fine and are comfortable to shoot. But they are not shot with the butt in the shoulder pocket like a Garand. They are shot off the Bicep below the shoulder. That is why the crescent is in the buttplate.

[kudu]

You dont have to be "good" to shoot the matches at Friendship
Butttt.... you have to be excellent if you want to win.

They have different classes based on proficiency , novice , marksmen , master.
look at a rules book on how to get classed.

If you truly want to beat the big boys I.E  Tim Marsh, Morgan Greely etc.
you better practice every day twice a day. a little coaching would help, and Prayer
wouldn't hurt.

I think you should just remember to have FUN , don't turn it into a job - get you a nice gun and enjoy
the Camaraderie of Blackpowder shooting.

As always Just a Opinion.
Adam

[Bob Roller]

To me.these English sporting rifles are the ideal offhand types.
Good looking and high end parts .
Bob Roller

[Daryl]

Not only are they ideal for hunting, Bob, but I sure shoot them better than the hooked butt plate rifles.
Positioning the rifle out on the bicep is just not comfortable for me - I don't like the position - I can do it, but I don't like to
shoot guns that require it.  My little .36 has a hooked butt but recoils soft enough I hold it normally (as with English-styled guns)
on the pectoral muscle/shoulder pocket, same as with any flat butt'd rifle or shotgun.
Like I noted earlier, the long rifles of late 1700's and early 1800's also have nice flattish butts and hold the same or similarly to modern rifles.
Of course, muzzle weight is needed for offhand/standing shooting.  Holding the rifle with the "off hand" back near the lock, accentuates any
extra weight the muzzle has and can turn a rifle with not much forend weight, into a better holding rifle.
The style you see a lot these days of people shooting standing is resting the arm and elbow against the body or on the hip and is not offhand
shooting per say, that meaning shooting off the hands.  It is standing shooting, or Olympic-style shooting - which is OK, depending on the rules
afloat.  There is/was a match put on by some Alberta fellows which did not allow body resting - it was strictly an "offhand" match, shooting off the
hands, as when hunting.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

For the purposes of the Postal Match, I don't care how you hold your rifle/gun, as long as no material rest is involved.

[Sheppsan]

Daryl, what is the barrel length on the rifles you have pictured.  I am in agreement with you.  I can shoot my Lyman well enough, but I do not like to position with the butt plate out on the bicep.  Would much prefer to hold a position similar to a Lee Enfield, Garand, etc.

[Daryl]

Top rifle has a 44" swamped Rice "gunmaker's" barrel. This one holds very nicely & not on the bicep - see the butt.
I think the Jaeger has a 31" bl. Taylor built it, so he would know more correctly.
3rd is the butt on my Sporting rifle - straight 1 1/8" in .69- rifle weighs 9 1/2 pounds & holds nicely.
3rd and 4th are original English Sporting rifles - which weigh from 8 1/2 pounds to maybe 9 pounds with swamped 30" to 31" bls. I don't hold them
as easily as my own, heavier rifle with greater muzzle weight.
All straight butt (shotgun butt) rifles hold in the pectoral muscle/shoulder pocket, pretty much identical to the modern rifles.
Some guys, like Taylor can hold on the spot, however others like me, have to take "it" on the way by with the gun almost constantly in motion.
I try to hold it on the spot, but that rarely happens. When it does, I am surprised and just look at it, not shooting. LOL - I have to get over that
and squeeze off the shot.

[Marcruger]

I have a good friend who is quite adept at bringing home target medals from the Friendship shoots each year.  He brings several guns to the competitions for various ranges and targets.  Many of his guns are old T/C guns bought with bad barrels.  He replaces the barrels with Green Mountain barrels, and makes specific sights for each target.  Not pretty, but he can really shoot them.

[Sheppsan]

Daryl, thanks for the additional info.  Estimating about 3.5ib for stock and lock, a Rice 36" .40cal 15/16 match barrel would bring me in at about 9.5lb.  Using a Virginia Rifle style or similar stock I would get a similar stock profile to a English Sporting or Jaeger and still be able to accommodate the slightly longer barrel.   Any other thoughts you have appreciated...

[StevenV]

Seems like your looking for a muzzle loader target gun. Question I have is how far down the rabbit hole do you want to go? The club I shoot at is into shooting one hole groups, so here we go. Just going to tell you what we do here,  you decide if it's worth it. Wipe between shots, swiss powder,  white lightening touch hole liner, adjustable rear sight for 100 yds. (Micro 1911 a good one), teflon coated patch ( allows for more lead/closer to bore dia.). We go with more lead less patch to fill the bore vs. smaller ball and fill with more patch. Set triggers, smaller caliber (.40 vs. .50) heavier vs. lighter gun approaching 10lbs., wind flags. We weigh and indicate the ball, staying with the line of thinking if you want to do the same down ranch (same/one hole ) you must do the same at the loading bench every time. JB the bore after every 100 shots.
Indicated balls so they go in the barrel the same way every time. It doesn't end all done with keeping the theme " if you want to do the same down range/one hole , you have to do the same at the loading bench, every time).
    At Friendship top offhand shooters, .40cal. , 10-12 lbs. gun weight (Tim Marsh 1 1/8 " barrel cut down to 36-38", get weight and ball leaves barrel sooner with shorter barrel. , white lightening touch hole liner, Null-B, Don Warner set triggers 

. I put these pics in for you Bob , don't know if you ever heard of or saw them.
You push the front trigger forward to set and shoot with the rear trigger.
    To summarize :
+ smaller caliber
+ heavier then lighter gun , at least approaching 10 lbs.
+ get this book 


+ stand in the same spot every time you shoot at the same target
+ White lightening touch hole liner
+ straight barrel
+ set triggers
+ shoot with people better then you
+ practice, practice and then practice some more ( if you can't get to the range shoot a good air rifle pellet gun in the cellar every day!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 Hope this helps with some more info. One more thing  , how much do you want it shooting one hole groups or close to that is lots of fun for me. Unfortunately I need to work for a living , gets in the way. I have my own business (farm) , six children and on and on,  you need to stay disciplined. I try and shoot at least every week at the range and consider myself a good shot. I think going from average to good is easier than going from good to great. Every now and then I have a great shoot but most are just good. I enjoy it , know my  limitations and compete against me. Here is a target I shot last Sunday , 50yds. off hand, 22 shots not bad but needs to be better to consistently win here ( my club).  Yes, I do try and win, if your keeping score your playing to win, you can't look at it any other way. I can have lots of fun trying to win. If we are shooting for fun and not trying to be first take the scores out of it.There are times at our club where a 50 3X won't even place at 50 yds. cross sticks. I keep shooting cause I really enjoy it and have had the privilege of knowing  plenty of good people willing to share knowledge. StevenV

[satwel]

If you are considering a traditional longrifle, I suggest one with a swamped barrel. I find them easier to hold. Start with a flintlock. They demand a perfect shooting technique. IMHO, if you can shoot a flintlock well, you can shoot anything else well.

[Sheppsan]

StevenV, appreciate the insight.  Rifle I am now considering closely matches your description: .40cal, 36-38" 15/16 barrel should give me about 9.5-10lbs. 

[StevenV]

F.Y.I. Dale , I have a .40cal. -15/16" 40" long barrel it weighs 6lbs. 11oz. , I have a cut off piece just shy of 3 3/4" long it weighs  10oz.. Works out to 2.7oz. per inch.
StevenV