Author Topic: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,  (Read 4812 times)

Offline Longknife

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Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« on: January 30, 2021, 09:25:46 PM »
I have posted this southern rifle here a few years ago looking for opinions on the maker.  It is well marked by initials and date on the barrel and I have even talked to Dave Byrd about it and he couldn't ID the maker. It has all the things we like to see on a southern rifle and a few unique features also.  I'm sure this was not the makers only gun. I am not going to show the markings to influence anyone's opinions.  Lets look at its architecture and characteristics and take a shot a who, when,  and where this nice southern gun was likely made,,, Its  not a lightweight, it has a 48 inch 36 cal. barrel and weighs 11 pounds.....  NO PEEKING at previous post!!!! Thanks. Ed



























« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 05:35:08 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline cshirsch

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2021, 10:14:50 PM »
I LIKE!

Offline Robby

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2021, 10:52:31 PM »
Very nice!!!!! A cut the $#@* and get down to it gun! Nice lines!
Robby
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Offline Sequatchie Rifle

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???
« Reply #3 on: January 31, 2021, 12:25:34 AM »
Would you show the signature? Looks interesting, several clues associated with the triggerguard, buttplate, and cheek rest.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2021, 03:53:32 AM by Sequatchie Rifle »
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Offline AZshot

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???
« Reply #4 on: January 31, 2021, 02:31:46 AM »
That lollypop tang extension and forward facing trigger guard spur sure look Mills River to me.  But I'm no expert.

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???
« Reply #5 on: January 31, 2021, 02:37:02 AM »
 ;) ;)... the cheek-rest and shape of the lock area (both sides) make me think Polk Co TN or nearby North Georgia region,...

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2021, 03:07:39 AM »
Nice old mountain gun. I like it! Curious, what is the odd fixture on the front of the guard? It appears to be threaded in the opening. Nothing I have ever seen before. Not a clue as to who the maker was, but thank you for bringing here to be admired. I am confident that someone here will be sure to know who made it.
Dick

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2021, 04:23:06 AM »
That lollypop tang extension and forward facing trigger guard spur sure look Mills River to me.  But I'm no expert.
Front of guard doesn't look Mills River nor does the cheekpiece. Tang is generic TN,  Mills River Gillespie Tangs usually had some differences than the TN tangs but returns on TG not rounded like many TN guards are . I think those are hardware store set triggers, have seen them on a lot of different guns. Beats me who/where it might have been made.
Dennis
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Offline JTR

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2021, 07:20:27 PM »
That's a nice rifle and very distinctive in many ways.
The barrel initials might give someone a clue as to maker.

 ;D The triggers look like Bob Roller triggers,,, but I'm pretty sure he Isn't That old......  ;)

John
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Offline Daniel Coats

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2021, 08:33:28 PM »
I'm clearly in over my head but can't help thinking Southeast Tennessee. Short nose cap looks late period to me. Overall description reminds me of the later Soddy Daisy guns and the lock molding looks like the Soddy Daisy print I got from Log Cabin recently. There was an original rifle that sold at Morphy's Auction in 2018 that had a heavy 50 inch barrel attributed to Soddy Daisy and marked on the top flat "JOHN KIRKMAN /NASHVILLE. I defer to the more knowledgeable forum members here but seems to me a late gun might be more likely to mix characteristics of more than one school and not necessarily built in the county it looked like it was. Dana says maybe Polk County TN which is very near Hamilton County TN where Soddy Daisy is located.
Dan

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Offline Longknife

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2021, 05:33:47 PM »
Ok Guys, here is the initial on top of the barrel.,,    L F * L E C C * 1886   





Ed Hamberg

Offline Tanselman

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2021, 09:50:58 PM »
I realize this rifle looks like a TN gun, but there is a good chance it was made in southeastern Kentucky in the Cumberland Plateau or "hill country" region. The slenderness of the rifle, length of barrel, tight side facings, and iron furniture were all used in a couple of counties in that area, close to the Tennessee line. The cheekpiece is also similar to several maker's work from that region. I cannot find a maker who lines up with the initials, but unfortunately we know less about gunmaking in that area of Kentucky than any other area of the State, so there is still work to be done. Fewer records and less information is available in those counties due to their reduced populations, backwoods ways, and most gunsmiths being recorded as "blacksmiths" since that's where they spent most of their time. The last two letters of the barrel marking may well refer to the county the gun was made in, i.e. "LE CO" despite the final "O" not being completely closed. If so, Leslie County, and more likely Letcher County, are where I would look in KY for the gunmaker.

I also think there is a good possibility the original nose cap is gone, perhaps from a slight shortening of the barrel, and we are looking at a cast replacement cap on this rifle. The current nose cap doesn't seem to "match up" in fit & finish with the quality of the other iron furniture or the rifle in general, which is a beautiful piece. Shelby Gallien
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 08:12:51 AM by Tanselman »

Offline Longknife

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2021, 06:22:54 PM »
Shelby, thanks for your input.  That exactly why I call it a Southern Rifle,,,,, Kentucky is a possibility. The last letter is definitely a "C". I looked up ways to abbreviate County and found seven different ways, None of then were CC. I also researched KY gun makers and blacksmiths, not a lot to find there.
 I also researched pewter nose caps, and found that no one pays much attention to nose caps unless they are spectacular. I did find that plain caps were much more common than fancy nose caps. I also noted that those  "sunbursts"  on the end of the barrel suggests it is original length.
 Another item that I researched is the plain round washer for the lock bolt. It really seemed odd and out of place (to me) on this fine piece, I could find no other maker that used it. 
I Also  researched that trigger guard and could not find any other guard like it,. This may be the key to finding the maker. It appears to be just a little "fancy" on an otherwise plain, but fine, Southern rifle.
Taking a look at the whole rifle its really not a fancy piece but it has all the things we like to see on a Southern Rifle....Ed






Ed Hamberg

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2021, 09:11:41 PM »
Q. Is it possible that the unusual feature on the front of the bow of the trigger guard is because it originally from a handle of some sort and repurposed? 

The feature/protrusion looks to be the product of stamping and appears to be welded to the front extension v. being formed from the same piece of metal.  The composition of the metal of the two (2) piece looks slightly different.

Q.  Are there any markings underneath the barrel, or butt plate?

Thanks for reintroducing this piece. 

 

Offline Wmasswolf

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2021, 09:52:02 PM »
The lock appears to be a goulcher lock with an engraved hunting scene. (Double lines around the edge of the lock and the hound dog visible behind the hammer on the lockplate) could also be a Belgian copy of the goulcher lock. Ive attached a pic of a similar hound dog from a 12g percussion gun with the goulcher logo still visible and a close up of the lock from the op's rifle




« Last Edit: February 05, 2021, 10:06:39 PM by Wmasswolf »

Offline JBJ

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #15 on: February 06, 2021, 04:31:03 PM »
I have seen the washer (often lead) under the hammer screw several times before. I am pretty sure that it was/is a "gunsmithing" expedient to tighten a loose hammer. Been there done that. When resources are limited, you make do!
J.B.

Offline Longknife

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #16 on: February 06, 2021, 07:57:47 PM »
JBJ, This Hammer screw washer is aluminum and undoubtedly put on by a back wood gunsmith. The Lock bolt washer I am referring to is the one opposite to lock under the lock bolt. Sorry if I wasn't clear enough,,,, Ed



Ed Hamberg

Offline Longknife

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #17 on: February 06, 2021, 08:04:01 PM »
Collector, I will remover the trigger guard and take a closer look, I had the barrel out and there were no marks on it or the stock. I haven't removed the butt plate as there is a lot of "patina" around the screws I didn't want to disturb!! Thanks, Ed

Wmass, I believe it is a Goulcher lock,,,, Thanks,

Ed Hamberg

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #18 on: February 07, 2021, 06:43:33 PM »
 ;) ;)... I cheated and peeked,... I remember seeing the earlier post and was interested in the location where you found her and the Sam Burchfield connection, who lived in the Chestnut Flats joining Cades Cove .. Vonore is just over the mountain and South of Cades Cove,.. many Burchfield descendants moved toward that area when the National Park forced them out,...Monroe County is a neighbor to Polk County and borders with Carolina,.. I still think the cheek and lock panels look S.E Tennessee , S.W North Carolina, or N. Georgia,.. the C.C. might be for "Cades Cove" , but I'm not aware of any gunsmiths working there,.. perhaps the original owner lived there ... ?   ... gotta find who the other letters are for,... I'm still researching,... this could get interesting,... regards,.. Cades Cove Fiddler... 

Offline Longknife

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2021, 08:37:29 PM »
Fiddler,  YOU PEEKED??????. I did get this from dealer In Vonore TN who claimed that the owner was a descendant of Sam Burchfield and this rifle once belonged to Sam.  The dealer provided a picture of Sam holding a rifle but upon close inspection this rifle was not the one in the pic. I could not verify any of this information.  I would like to believe that CC is the abbreviation for Cades Cove but can not verify that. I have access to Ancestry.com and have been searching there without much luck.  I hope you come up with something as I have just about run out of ideas ,,,, Thanks, Ed
Ed Hamberg

Offline cshirsch

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #20 on: February 09, 2021, 02:52:31 AM »
The lock appears to be a goulcher lock with an engraved hunting scene. (Double lines around the edge of the lock and the hound dog visible behind the hammer on the lockplate) could also be a Belgian copy of the goulcher lock. Ive attached a pic of a similar hound dog from a 12g percussion gun with the goulcher logo still visible and a close up of the lock from the op's rifle





That is not engraving in the technical sense.  Those are actually stamped in designs.


Offline Marcruger

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #21 on: February 09, 2021, 07:01:53 PM »
Any way you cut it, that's a pretty rifle. 

Offline 1sogdusm

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2021, 02:55:57 PM »
Well let’s dig this back up!  Cades Cove was sharp as always and remembered this post from earlier this year.  Yesterday I posted about a recent find near Chattanooga that I believe helps on the ID of this rifle. See my post on SMR L.F. LEGG for more information.  I believe the maker is Leonard Franklin Legg born 1856 in Fannin County, Georgia. The area of Fannin where he lived is a rocks throw from Polk County, Tennessee and a long walk to the NC boarder. LEGG showed up on the census in Chattanooga, Hamilton County Tennessee in 1910 as a carpenter.  He died in 1912 and is buried in Chattanooga at the Forest Hills Cemetery.  Below is a photo of signature on my find, look at the L and F style and let me know if you have any doubt the same person is responsible for both.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 03:00:20 PM by 1sogdusm »

Offline Longknife

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2021, 03:32:59 PM »
Thats him for sure!!!!!  ;D,,, I looked again at my signature and the  two "G's " still look like C's but the L, E and F are unmistakable, and that trigger guard too!!!!! GOOD FIND!!!! I am going to have to call Dave Byrd!!...
« Last Edit: April 25, 2021, 03:40:20 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Southern rifle, maker unknown???... Pic added,,,,
« Reply #24 on: April 25, 2021, 07:11:08 PM »
 :o :o,..... Jim, I do believe you have solved this mystery,... and I know Ed has to be excited,... !!! ...would be great to find more history on Mister LEGG,... this kind of I.D. work is what I like to see with these old LongRifles,.... thanx, fellers,.. !!! .... Regards, and See you in Knoxville,... !!!! ... CCF