Author Topic: Datum for flintlock design  (Read 3001 times)

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 846
Datum for flintlock design
« on: February 02, 2021, 10:06:58 AM »
Is it a line across the top flat of the pan and a ninety degree angle dropped from that line through the center of the pan ?
Thanks Richard

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15784
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2021, 10:22:53 AM »
For the vent - usually that seems the preferred location.  Tests have shown that a vent below that point, where the vent is covered with powder, gives faster ignition.
Either/or.
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 846
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2021, 01:13:19 PM »
Daryl, I guess I was not too clear in my question, I知 not talking about vent location but when designing a lock plate from what point, the datum, are all hole locations  measured from and located from. Is there an accepted datum point. I知 guess though if you are making your own lockplate you can pick any point.
Richard thanks
« Last Edit: February 02, 2021, 01:17:49 PM by flatsguide »

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7001
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2021, 03:56:07 PM »
Hi Richard,
You ask a good question and I don't believe there is a firm answer because lock geometry is a system that can function well with multiple solutions.  On my good quality original guns, the jaws of the flintcocks without any flint are pointed either directly down into the center of the pan or at the front edge of the pan.  The throw of the cock is the distance from front tip of the lower jaw to the center of the square tumbler post hole, which should also represent the center of rotation of the tumbler.  I think you can choose to use a vertical center line into the pan as an aiming point for flint cock as a starting reference.  However, a center point at the bottom of the pan, at the top, or even a point along the front top edge of the pan can all be made to work well so I do not think that reference point is critical.  Moreover, you should consider the position of the end of the flint when the lock is at rest.  On some locks it is buried in the pan but that means the flint is right in the stream of gases shooting from the vent hole.  Flints get really fouled from that.  On my originals, the flintcocks are tall such that the flint tends to come to rest well above the pan.  In a couple of extreme examples, two locks, one by Twigg and the other on the Ferguson rifle, the jaws on the flintcocks barely over hang the pan at all when at rest.  However, the thickness of the frizzen and the fact that its face is almost flat rather than concave, allows the lock to create abundant sparks right in the pan.  I guess the upshot is a flintlock is a system allowing many solutions to be optimized rather than a single discrete solution.

dave   
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline FlintFan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 249
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2021, 04:01:14 PM »
Are you designing a lock with all parts made from scratch, or designing a new plate to which you will fit commercially available parts?  If it is the former the suggestions already given will work well.  If it is the latter the center of the tumbler hole will be your datum.

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2021, 04:42:28 PM »
I'll go measure my datum point, if I can find it. i'll get back to you. I had no idea gun building got so technical.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 846
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2021, 05:24:56 PM »
Mike it may be that flintlocks are once again high tech for us civilians...see Bobs post above?
Dave, thanks for that info..I値l file that away.
Flintfan, thank you I can understand that the tumbler hole in the plate woul work and be easy to pick up.
Cheers Richard

Offline t.caster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3728
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2021, 05:36:35 PM »
OMG, I haven't seen any mention of DATUM points since I retired 5 1/2 yrs. ago from designing and checking automated machinery. We even used it to locate drill holes in structural steel beams and columns up to 40' long.
I would suppose you could use the tumbler hole as 0.000 datum, but it has to be located off two perpendicular machined surfaces, so I also suppose you are starting with a rectangular plate.
You have to know the exact dimensions of all the parts that bolt to the plate first, don't you? Unless of course you are copying an existing lock.
Enough rambling from an old retired codger!
Tom C.

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4471
    • Personal Website
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2021, 05:44:45 PM »
Here is what I would suggest...  Get your hands on some very good original locks.  Originals are great, but castings pulled from originals can be very good as well.  Study these in detail along with all the photos of others you can find.  Use these as guides in your design process.  Also, ask yourself continually why a particular lock is made how it is and what is the result.  It takes a good bit of study to get a good understanding.  There is as much to design of a flintlock as there is to the entire rests of a rifle.  As a rule, flintlock design and quality is lacking considerably behind other aspects of gunbuilding.  It's not uncommon for a good builder to do a great job on stocking a rifle, but have a sub-par lock.  I think they often don't even realize what it is lacking.   As far as design for manufacture etc, ask yourself what the required function/design criterea are and go from there.    Ok, enough rambling.

Jim

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 846
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2021, 06:23:49 PM »
Tom, thanks for chiming in. I would be starting with a rectangular block of 8620 with 3perpendicular machined reference surfaces. I want to copy a Manton V pan lock I have a V pan plate from TRS and another TRS Late Manton Manton  that I got from another member here but it was not a V pan lock, but I kept it anyway.
Jim I liked the fact that you located the bridle on your lock with pins, I知 going to try that. I would like to have an original Manton lock to study but that is very unlikely with their rarity and value. I have just enough machining  skill to get into trouble lol.
I壇 like to be a fly on the wall in a lock filing and design shop in London around the early 19th century those guys were artists with a file.
I really appreciate the advice guys!
Cheers Richard

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #10 on: February 02, 2021, 06:25:54 PM »
YIKES!  It's a good thing I'm all but retired. It's obvious I'm no longer qualified for this job.
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline T*O*F

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5119
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #11 on: February 02, 2021, 07:35:59 PM »
I have Georg Lauber's book, How to Build Your Own Flintlock -  rifle or pistol. It contains 13, 8.5x11 blueprint plates showing dimensions, measurements and locations for all parts of a flint lock.  Also contains full sized prints of the rifle or pistol and associated parts.  Interested?

I also have his book for percussion building.
Dave Kanger

If religion is opium for the masses, the internet is a crack, pixel-huffing orgy that deafens the brain, numbs the senses and scrambles our peer list to include every anonymous loser, twisted deviant, and freak as well as people we normally wouldn't give the time of day.
-S.M. Tomlinson

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7001
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2021, 07:49:16 PM »
Hi Richard,
You don't need an actual Manton lock.  Even a mid-quality English lock from the early 19th century puts many modern locks to shame.  Visit www.flintlockcollection.com and look closely at the locks.  The site has many superb close up photos of some of the best British guns ever made.  Also Richard, there are quite a few machinists contributing to this site and their views of precision are very valuable.  However, a tumbler rotates perhaps 1/4 turn and maybe some few thousands of times during its working life.  It is not like a fan on a turbo jet spinning thousands of RPMs for hours on end.  The best flintlocks ever made were done by skilled tradesmen with files, stones, gauges, jigs, and a few primitive specialized tools.  Their precision was awesome but it can never match what can be done by a modern machine tool.  The bottom line however, is that it doesn't have to.   

dave
"The main accomplishment of modern economics is to make astrology look good."

Offline Daryl

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 15784
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #13 on: February 02, 2021, 08:21:05 PM »
Good point about end position of the flint after firing, Dave.  I've had (still have one) locks that put the flint right into the pan at full "throw". The jet of hot flame from the vent
didn't foul than, but it did burn away the flint, or chert being used. This 'burning" left a very smooth surface on the 'cutting' edge of the flint, starting, of course on the corner nearest
the vent.
Both of these locks give very fast quick ignition with a good flint in the jaws, but need to be napped after as few as 10 shots.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 09:53:27 PM by Daryl »
Daryl

"a gun without hammers is like a spaniel without ears" King George V

Offline jerrywh

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8885
    • Jerrywh-gunmaker- Master  Engraver FEGA.
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #14 on: February 02, 2021, 11:41:36 PM »
I couldn't say it any better than Jim Kibler. In order to completely understand the correct geometry of a good flintlock one should make a few from scratch.  Or study the best original fint locks from the English preferably. Nobody made better locks than the English in my opinion. On some of the later locks made for or by Manton and others the flint almost stuck right down in the powder on the pan when fired. The angle of the flint hitting the frizzen is very critical. Also, the position of the frizzen screw hole is important. But there is not a lot of options there. One thing most makers do not consider is the purpose for which the gun will be used. For instance, On a dueling pistol, one is not too concerned about how long the flint will last. The main thing is how efficiently the pistol will fire for one or two shots. This might be determined by the spring tensions and the temper of the frizzen. Nobody would care if the flint lasted for 100 or 200 shots. Hunting guns would be totally different.
Nobody is always correct, Not even me.

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 846
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2021, 04:35:22 AM »
Dave thanks for the book offer but I値l pass on it.
Thanks Richard

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4412
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2021, 05:35:39 AM »
  This lock discussion is out of my league. But one thing I learned a long time ago about
Flintlock firearms.
 The gun can have all kinds of things to make it look great. But if the lock doesn't function properly everytime... Well you sure have a pretty wall ornament.  Oldtravler

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 846
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2021, 06:45:34 AM »
Thanks Jerry,I agree with you.I'm sure there are many subtle things about the workings of a flintlock that escapes me. I知 starting to look at the contemporary ones that I have with a fresh eye.
Thanks Richard

Offline Not English

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 594
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2021, 08:15:56 AM »
I've occasionally found Mike's comments to be kind of smart a**ed, but I really have to agree. As long as the gun goes off reasonably smartly, it works.

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4471
    • Personal Website
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2021, 03:37:29 PM »
There are levels to most everything.  This isn't being critical in any way.  What sets the standard to judge something is different for everybody. 

Jim

Offline flatsguide

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 846
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2021, 04:42:59 PM »
Lol, I think Mikes humorous comments kinda makes one think to keep ones foot on the floor.
Cheers Richard

Offline Mike Brooks

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 13415
    • Mike Brooks Gunmaker
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2021, 04:58:55 PM »
I've occasionally found Mike's comments to be kind of smart a**ed, but I really have to agree. As long as the gun goes off reasonably smartly, it works.
I have found it's better than being a dumb a$$. ;D
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
Say, any of you boys smithies? Or, if not smithies per se, were you otherwise trained in the metallurgic arts before straitened circumstances forced you into a life of aimless wanderin'?

Offline David Rase

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4319
  • If we need it here, make it here. Charlie Daniels
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2021, 05:04:43 PM »
YIKES!  It's a good thing I'm all but retired. It's obvious I'm no longer qualified for this job.
I am sure the fishing industry has made the transition to over engineered high tech angling gear as well, so your retirement plans might also be in jeopardy.  Or you could watch Jeopardy, oh wait, they made TV's smart enough that the common man cannot figure them out. 
 

Offline Pukka Bundook

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3440
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2021, 05:16:12 PM »
Mike,
I often think we must be twins separated at birth.

Offline oldtravler61

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4412
  • We all make mistakes.
Re: Datum for flintlock design
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2021, 07:49:39 PM »
  Well if ya ever have worked one of Mike's locks on his guns
You will KNOW what an how a fine tuned lock is like..!!!
  Oldtravler