Author Topic: Need help identifying a rifle going on display. (Read 3070 times)

Yober · « **on:** February 12, 2021, 02:37:36 AM »

Hello all,

My wife volunteers at the local historical museum and they received a number of interesting firearm-related goodies from a local patron today. The owner had this particular piece in her family for generations but didn’t know much about it. The museum would like to find something to put in the display explaining what it was, it’s provenance, etc., and I thought someone on this forum might know something or be able to point me in the right direction. I’m doing this as a favor as I’m not a black powder aficionado (yet).

Not much is known about the ancestor that owned it. The leather in one of the pics was added later by someone who took it out for a shoot and didn’t want the stock to split (there’s a small crack). That was about 15 years ago.

It’s curious there’s a considerable amount of brass work and scrollwork, but no lettering or identification of any kind. Is this typical? The scrollwork and pheasant pair point to a Golcher lockworks mechanism. Some seem to think it might be an Ohio or Vincent. Others have commented on the curious brass insert in the trigger guard. Have no specifics on the caliber.

The ladies at the museum would be most appreciative of anything y’all could tell them as they could use the information for the display placard when it goes up.

Many thanks and much appreciated!

Clicking on the link below will take you to a few more detailed photos; I hope I’m posting this right.

https://www.flickr.com/gp/9749123@N06/10820Q

Cades Cove Fiddler · « **Reply #1 on:** February 12, 2021, 03:43:57 AM »

... A lot of the features seem to fit the ones I have seen here in past posts concerning G.W. Hatfield,... unfortunately most of the photos from these seem to have disappeared into cyber outerspace, making comparison fruitless,.. I do remember similarities in the small band behind entry pipe and the side plate,... the guard with the brass overlay sure made me want to think A.F. Gross,... give us some specs and a photo of the barrel tang,.. ... Where are Shelby and Louie,..

mr. no gold · « **Reply #2 on:** February 12, 2021, 04:28:41 AM »

The powder horn appears to be a Lancaster horn which had a mirror inlet into the butt. Nice item, not too many around. The bayonet is wholly out of place here; looks European. The rifle is just a Jim-Dandy and is likely southern, but not sure what state. First impression was NC but no, don't think so. Whoever made it was a fine builder and the silver is especially nice. It does present traits of more than one school, but that is not necessarily the case. Can you post a full length photo of the gun? You have given us some great detail shots of various parts. The engraving on the silver is just as good as it gets. Also where, or what state did this one turn up? Thank you for providing us gathered here the opportunity to view a fine rile.
Dick

louieparker · « **Reply #3 on:** February 12, 2021, 05:50:12 AM »

youber I can't tell you for sure who made this rifle.. But they definitely had a strong connection to Alfred Farrington Gross of Sullivan County Tenn. The trigger guard could be by his hand as could some of the silver inlays.. The overlay on the trigger guard is something AFG did a lot of. The stock work doesn't look like any signed AFG rifle that I have seen.. So I can't attribute it to him. I have seen a rifle by a Gross who was a bit later than AFG . But I can't recall his name.. But he did make an ornate rifle. Or ot could be by someone who trained with Gross.
Samual Glover was a gunsmith who trained with AFG. He made a rifle much like a Gross .. I mention him because he used a lot of iron butt plates with cast brass guards..Where this builder did just the opposite.
Sorry I can't give you the makers name.. But he at least trained in sullivan county and probably lived there.....Louie

PS> I would get rid of the leather.

wormey · « **Reply #4 on:** February 12, 2021, 06:44:19 AM »

The bayonet is French, circa 1870s or so, most likely for a Chassepot rifle. Not much in the way of collectible value or interest here. The rifle and horn, now that`s a different story entirely! That rifle will generate a lot of interest here. I defer to others who are more expert than I am, but it was certainly made in the mountains of North Carolina or East Tennessee by a gunsmith well trained and skilled in the trade. That triggerguard is a work of art! I hope that museum realizes what a treasure they have been bequeathed. Wormey

Niall · « **Reply #5 on:** February 12, 2021, 12:22:09 PM »

Quote from: wormey on February 12, 2021, 06:44:19 AM

The bayonet is French, circa 1870s or so, most likely for a Chassepot rifle.

Pretty close,Wormey.....It's actually for the French M1874 Gras Rifle which was the successor to the M1866 Chassepot....

Mark Elliott · « **Reply #6 on:** February 12, 2021, 03:52:07 PM »

I immediately thought of Alfred Gross when I saw that guard. I made several attempts to make one like it before I got close enough to stop. The inlays and the engraving on the inlays and lock also remind me of Alfred Gross' work. Of course, that doesn't mean Alfred Gross made the rifle, but I am willing to bet he or someone close to him did.

Hlbly · « **Reply #7 on:** February 12, 2021, 05:17:32 PM »

The guard, triggers, rear entry pipe and nose cap say Gross. And like Louie said, lose the leather.

Longknife · « **Reply #8 on:** February 12, 2021, 05:58:27 PM »

Yober, Look closely at the top of the barrel between the breech and rear sight, this is where the maker would have signed it. Barrel looks like it has a lot of corrosion so it may be hard to see,,,,Ed

dogbest · « **Reply #9 on:** February 12, 2021, 06:28:14 PM »

Very nice gun!!

Daniel Coats · « **Reply #10 on:** February 12, 2021, 06:55:14 PM »

I would use a bright light and a magnifying glass to look for lettering. Just don't remove rust or disturb the patina.

Yober · « **Reply #11 on:** February 12, 2021, 09:50:15 PM »

Thanks for your considerable insight. I’ll take a look at it again this weekend and hopefully get in touch with the owner. It’s going up here in Bandon, Oregon, at the Historical Museum.

The thought that it might be of southern origin is interesting. Some have told me it might be an Ohio rifle, but I know nothing.…

Yes, the bayonet is unrelated to the gun and one thought was that it was a St. Etienne (sp?).

Not sure what other specs I can glean on the rifle, but I’ll try and decipher anything on the barrel. In the link there’s a panorama of the entire length of the rifle, but it was hard to get it smooth. I’ll try again.

Thanks for all your help!

Collector · « **Reply #12 on:** February 12, 2021, 10:29:39 PM »

How about taking off the modern leather wrap and get a better look at the inlays along the sides of the wrist?

The wrap serves only as a obstruction and distraction at this point, while the inlays may serve to further identify the maker.

The singular beauty of the rifle is lost, as the eye is drawn to the mass and lighter color of the leather, instead of along the lines of the piece.

louieparker · « **Reply #13 on:** February 12, 2021, 10:35:02 PM »

Youber the barrel marking could be like two or three initials... Alfred Gross signed several of his guns with the Initials AG or AFG >> Look close. I would be intrested in seeing photos looking streight down on the rear sight and the barrel tang. LP

Yober · « **Reply #14 on:** February 14, 2021, 03:45:17 AM »

Took these today. Couldn’t get caliber but thought I might’ve found some markings along the barrel top. In one of the photos with my thumb in it, the thumb points to some lettering that looked like a “0” and a “3” and a capital “L,” I included a couple of different lighting/angle options and cranked the contrast on one. The lettering seems clearer in person than I could capture with my iPhone.

I also removed the leather, which was added relatively recently to obscure the crack in the stock. Hope I got what everybody wanted to see.

Thanks.

Cades Cove Fiddler · « **Reply #15 on:** February 14, 2021, 04:54:06 AM »

... So how about that barrel tang and the decoration under the leather wrap,... Wash Hatfield used that inlay on the highly decorated rifle,... anyone else thinking HATFIELD yet,...? ... CCF

louieparker · « **Reply #16 on:** February 14, 2021, 07:59:39 PM »

Yober thanks for the extra photos.. The reason I wouldn't attribute this rifle to Alfred Gross was the woodwork.. There are a couple of things that were unlike his work and one of these I have seen on all his rifles that I recall seeing. Its a little square shoulder that he left at the rear ramrod pipe where the forearm blends into the fore stock.. (Photo attached)..The other is the woodwork around the lock, barrel tang and trigger plate.. I couldn't see those areas on your rifle very well..But it seemed to me to be a bit more refined than the AFG rifles..More wood removed by fluting. Your last photos inforced my belief. I now have a theory that this rifle could be a joint effort of Alfred Gross and his father Jacob..( Jacob 1790 ....1872) I have only seen one rifle by Jacob that had any resemblance to the work of Alfred. I always thought it was a joint effort..Some other Jacob rifles are completely different to Alfred..I am attaching a photo of a Jacob rifle to show the work around the tang. The flutes are deeper than normal and probably on a bigger gun..But it shows he did them...
This may seem like weak evidence to attribute a rifle to a maker. But it's far more than some are made by.
Just my opinion.......Louie

Yober · « **Reply #17 on:** February 14, 2021, 09:58:12 PM »

Tell me from what angle and area I should shoot to capture that woodwork, and I’ll see if I can get to the rifle again soon. Thanks for the assessment.

louieparker · « **Reply #18 on:** February 15, 2021, 01:06:39 AM »

Yober I can see on the photos you have taken....LP

Yober · « **Reply #19 on:** February 18, 2021, 02:14:55 AM »

Thanks for all your help! I’m going to write up what I found into a display placard for them.

What is a long rifle with this type of corrosion and indeterminate origin worth (not that she would want to sell it but I suppose for insurance purposes)?

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Author Topic: Need help identifying a rifle going on display. (Read 3070 times)

dogbest