1777 Charleville, What would you do with a gun in this condition?

[Stonehouse john]

This musket is shown in the condition I received it in, I know nothing of it's past.  I am surely no scholar of military musketry and this one holds some real mysteries for me.  I'd love to hear what you all think.

The gun came to me with an uninstalled aftermarket bridled brass pan and a cock-casting to convert it back to flint, everything else is original.

Some questions:  

- The inside of the lock plate is marked "FRANCOIS" and below that, in the same font, what looks like "vDAVID".  The exterior has script at the bottom edge that I can't read and above that is stamped with a crowned HB.  The "H" and "B" are joined, back to back, like the Hudson Bay Co. symbol.    Is this a known Charleville mark or does it indicate some history with The HBC?

- The bore is rifled... kind of.  It's hard for me to get a great photo of it but there are four shallow but distinct "rifling" groves in the bore.  These are not just random scratches, they're shallow but they're precisely done.  They are four evenly spaced grooves that twist down the bore at a rate of 1:48".  Any thoughts on this?

-  There is no shortage of stamping on the barrel.  I've tried to include useful photos of them all but I don't have the reference materials to make any sense of them.  Anyone recognize any of them?  The barrel underside has a strange configuration of slanted figures that resemble Roman numerals that seems to read "IIIV//"  and this same mark is repeated in the wood of the barrel-channel.

-  The forestock is broken and both it and the barrel are roughly sawn off to a barrel length of  22-3/4".  The belled steel ramrod has also been shortened. 

-  And I guess the biggest question is what would you do with something in this condition?

Any and all observations would be much appreciated.
Thanks,
John

[wormey]

It`s a good candidate for restoration, but you first need to do some homework.  The lock and I suppose the rest of the gun is indeed French, but not the model 1777.  That model had a rounded lockplate with a brass pan.  This musket is a little earlier and had an iron pan, not brass.  The shape of the buttstock suggests post 1777, but the lock appears earlier, go figure.  Some French muskets post 1800 were rifled, but usually had 7 or so lands and grooves.  This barrel appears to have been rifled for a minie ball, which was invented in France.  It was obviously converted to percussion which would have been done around 1860.  Could even be a confederate conversion since they did  more of this than the North and included many French muskets then on hand in southern arsenals.  I have seen a model 1766 so altered and rifled.  The buttstocks on most pre 1777 muskets had wrists that extended well into the butt of the stock some almost to the buttplate along with flat lockplates.  This stcck and sideplate along with band springs is reminiscent of our model 1842 muskets as well as the British model of 1777 which also had fingergrooves in the iron triggerguard.  They had round lockplates with brass pans.  This lockplate as I said earlier appears to be from an earlier model French musket.  As for what to do with it, after figuring out exactly what it is Bobby Hoyt can "stretch" the barrel to its original length for a very reasonable price.  The lock could be converted back to flint of left percussion.  The forestock would be run out to its original length ( not a difficult job). Good luck with your project.  Suggest you get the book French Military Small Arms, Muskets of the Revolution, Small arms of the British Forces in America. Wormey

[WESTbury]

The lockplate is either a M1763 or M1766 from Maubeuge Arsenal. The M1763 lockplate is 6-11/16" long and the M1766 lockplate is 6-1/4" long. Neither had a brass pan. The triggerplate could be a M1777 as it has finger ridges.

Quite frankly, given the condition of the mixed model parts, I would sell the components and use the proceeds to by a complete French M1777, if that is what you thought you were getting. M1777 are readily available and less expensive than the M1763 or M1766, due to fact that the M1777 was not provided to American troops during the American Revolution, but came here with the French Army.

I'm looking at this from a collectors point of view as to value vs cost to restore, so take that into consideration.

 

[rich pierce]

I can’t offer advice as what you should do depends on how or why you acquired it. If you’re a collector of guns of this sort for any reason, then the question is preservation or restoration. If you chanced upon it at low cost it’s either a wall hanger to keep or a card to play in the collecting game.

I am curious as to whether the rifling is spiraled or straight.

I like the idea that it was reworked for military use long after it was made.

[smart dog]

Hi,
The lock at least is from St Etienne, not Maubeuge.  The crown over "HB" is a common mark on locks from ST. Etienne during the 1770s or so.  Francois David is also listed as a worker at St. E. during the middle years of the 18th century.

dave

[WESTbury]

Hi,
The lock at least is from St Etienne, not Maubeuge. 
dave

Dave is very correct about the arsenal being St Etienne, my error. I would like to blame my mistake on having posted it early in the morning but, I already had two large cups of coffee, so no excuse!

[backsplash75]

I rarely suggest this but I'd part this one out given the chop job.

[Hungry Horse]

 Just for clarification, the earliest known French military flintlocks with brass pans came from Maubeuge arsenal.

  Hungry Horse

[Stonehouse john]

Thanks very much for all of your replies thus far!  I jumped to the conclusion that it was a mod.1777 based mostly on the finger ridges and the fact that it had a cut-in cheek rest (which I now realize does not show in any of my photos).  I'll include a shot of it because I have heard that they were sometimes carved in later to make sighting easier and mine may or may not be a factory feature.  Perhaps someone with knowledge of how they are supposed to look will chime in. 
Also, based on your comments I've made some measurements.  The lock length is exactly 6 3/4", it's widest point measures 1 7/16" wide (tall).  The butplate is 1 7/8" wide by 4 1/2" high.  I didn't slug the barrel but with a good calliper it gives varying readings from .711" to .725" probably due to the roughness of the end cut.  The brass pan that was with it is a modern replacement part that was most likely just someones guess of what should go back on it. 
I inhereted this gun and at this point I'm more of a shooter than a collector.   I have no experience with what can or should reasonably be restored or preserved but I didn't want to be the guy who ruined something of historical value because I didn't know any better.  I really appreciate the knowledge you all have and are willing to share!

John