Author Topic: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle FINISHED  (Read 6151 times)

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5490
Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle FINISHED
« on: February 22, 2021, 02:45:59 AM »
Hi,
I've been working on a pretty close copy of the Edward Marshall rifle for a friend and customer.  It will not be a bench copy but as close as I can come without having the original in hand and using mostly commercially made parts.  I have Houston Harrison's beautiful drawings of the gun and many detailed photos.  Bob Lienemann, as always, has been particularly generous and helpful to me and so has Manfred Schmitz.  To be honest, I was mostly ambivalent about the rifle for years.  I always appreciated its significance but many makers have done versions and there are several kit versions.  I was always attracted to the "other" guns from that era and place such as RCA 52 because hey were different and seldom copied.  All that changed after seeing the actual gun and Bob Lienemann's photo essay in his book on Moravian gun making.  I fell in love with the gun and that feeling has multiplied 100 fold as I build a copy.  It is clearly the work of a European trained master gunsmith with all the good design and sophistication that implies.  I am using the Rice barrel, trigger guard, butt plate, and ramrod pipes sold by Chambers for their EM kit.  The barrel is 37" (13/16" shorter than the original) and 62 caliber.  It is also smaller at the breech than the original so I had to make some adjustments in the stock to compensate.  I am using a M&G "Albrecht" lock that I improved and modified extensively and posted previously.  The stock is hard curly sugar maple cut from Vermont.  Here is where I am at and I wanted to show how I modified set triggers to work with this project.  First, here is the rifle at this point.
   




















As I build it, I appreciate more and more the gun maker who built the original.  It is a very great design and handles extremely well.  One tip I want to pass on to others is reduce the LOP a little to compensate for the thick wrist and large trigger guard.  If you want a rifle to fit someone with normal LOP = 14" reduce that by 3/8".  The trigger finger has to stretch around a lot of wood.

I am currently inletting the set triggers.  They present a bit of a challenge because the trigger levers need to be tall to engage the sear.  Most set triggers won't do and I ended up buying Davis triggers sold by Chambers for their EM kits.  They would work but they are small and the levers short such that I would have to move LOP further back than I want or that specified by my plans to have any hope of a decent unset front trigger pull.  I opted for a set of L&R Hawken triggers that had longer levers and were more robust.


However, the two triggers are just too close together to mate with my design.  No worries because it means I can get out my welder and my ball peen hammers, my favorite tools.  Any day I can melt something with a welder and bash it with a ball peen hammer is a good day for me.  So I took the triggers apart, annealed them, and then cut away at the back of the front trigger.
   


I heated the trigger and pried the cut wider and then back filled the gap with weld as well as adding metal here and there.  The result was very good and meets my needs and looks much more historically correct.




More to come,

dave
« Last Edit: April 21, 2021, 07:57:38 PM by smart dog »
"Flick Lives!"

Offline Woodsrunner79

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 101
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2021, 04:04:03 AM »
Looks good. I regret not being able to get down Braintree way and talk with you/see this kind of stuff in person. Someday,  post pandemic, perhaps.

Jordan

Online alacran

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1185
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2021, 02:07:02 PM »
That is a very good solution to your trigger conundrum. Rifle looks good so far. What kind of welder do you use?
A man's rights rest in three boxes: the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.  Frederick Douglass

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5490
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2021, 03:44:06 PM »
Hi Alacran,
I have an oxy-acetylene gas torch and mild steel welding rod.  I'll case harden the triggers when done.

dave 
"Flick Lives!"

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2021, 12:17:02 AM »
Good clean baling wire is not as common as it used to be, but is perfect for gas welding. You can literally put it on one drop at a time if you want.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5490
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2021, 02:23:32 AM »
Hi,
Been working on this gun for a while so I thought I would post some recent photos.  I am enjoying making this rifle.

























I've made many wood patch boxes and always secured the latch spring with a small wood screw.  This time I want to just shape it into a chisel point and drive it into the end of the latch mortice.  For those who do this, how far do you typically drive it into the wood?  Do you prepare some sort of mortice in the end of the latch slot to partly receive the point or do you just drive it into the squared end of the slot?  Do any of you burn it in?  Thanks for the advice.

dave
"Flick Lives!"

Offline helwood

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 121
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2021, 03:50:49 AM »
Greetings  Dave,
You really don't have to drive it in too deep.  Or too steep of angle.  Start a small starter slot for your chisel tip.  The big tip that Ron Ehlert showed us was to support both sides of the box.  We used a vice padded with leather but my new vice has a padding that came with the vice that works nicely.   Hank


Offline TommyG

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 426
  • "Double Trouble"
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2021, 03:59:31 AM »
Hi Dave,  Your Marshall build is looking great.  I'm sure some more experienced builders will chime in, but on the few wood lids that I did, I did burn in the spring.  I found it helps to drill a couple of 1/16" holes about 1/2" deep using the spring channel as a guide, to help things along with the burn as the wood above the spring retaining mortise is minimal and will split pretty easily(I found that out the hard way).  I have a 4" long drill I found at the local hardware store that works well for this.  I try to get the spring into the mortise 1/2 to 3/4" deep.  Hope this helps. 

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2021, 06:16:25 AM »
I have thought about putting a couple small barbs on the end with a graver to keep the spring from backing out. I don't see why it wouldn't work, something to think about.

Offline Monty59

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 112
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2021, 01:01:08 PM »
Hello Dave , i think the rifle will be great and i'm looking forward to following the progress here !

Monty

M.Schmitz

Offline Jim Kibler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3572
    • Personal Website
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2021, 09:19:23 PM »
So, when I've installed box springs that drive in, I've used the following process:  Cut your slot in the box lid.  Use a long 1/16" drill bit to drill either two or three pilot holes.  Heat the spring tip and progressively burn the tip in.  Stop a little shy of final position.  I then have raised some burrs with a graver, applied a dab of epoxy and then tapped it home.  With a little care it works well. 

Jim

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5490
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2021, 10:51:07 PM »
Hi,
Thanks for looking folks.  Hank, Tommy, and Jim, thank you for the advice.  I will use it when I am ready to hammer the latch home. 

dave
"Flick Lives!"

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5490
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #12 on: March 15, 2021, 01:42:21 AM »
Hi,
I would appreciate some input by folks familiar with the Edward Marshall rifle concerning some details.  Below is a link to Jud Brennan's blog showing wonderful photos of the original rifle:
https://judsonbrennan.blogspot.com/2016/10/judson-jesse-and-david-brennan-travel.html

I am basing my project on my notes from viewing the original gun, Jud's photos, many other photos published by Bob Lienemann and George Shumway, and Houston Harrison's drawings.  One problem with the drawings is that Harrison seems to add some details that are logical but not visible on the original rifle.  For example, he shows the rear and front aprons of the lock and side plate moldings connecting on the bottom the stock.  The photos of the original gun are not at all clear that the molding connected front and rear on the bottom.  It appears to me more like an early pattern Brown Bess on which the front and rear aprons fade out without connecting.  The other detail is I do not think there was any appreciable flat around the lock or side plate.  We always ascribe those rounded surfaces to 200 years of wear but I do not think they existed on the original gun except perhaps as a hair line of flat.  I would appreciate some thoughts and opinions. 

dave
"Flick Lives!"

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #13 on: March 15, 2021, 01:56:19 AM »
Dave, if your talking about the bottom along the triggerguard,There is a photo on Eric Kettenburg's website that shows the moulding. http://www.erickettenburg.com/edward-marshalls-rifle.html

Offline mark brier

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 315
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #14 on: March 15, 2021, 02:01:52 AM »
Donít know if this helps or not, but here is the drawing and measurements of the original my grandfather drew. I posted the rifle here in the past. I have the foil impression rubbing also but I couldnít get detail pictures with just a phone.
Mark Brier








instagram photo downloder

Offline john bohan

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #15 on: March 15, 2021, 02:31:11 AM »
so nice to see people sharing such good information.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5490
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #16 on: March 15, 2021, 03:13:54 AM »
Mark,
Thank you.  Tom's drawings are wonderful and very useful to me.  Flinchrocket, look at the link I posted and click on the images, which will enlarge them.  Brennan's photos are by far the most detailed I've seen and show the lock area clearly.  I don't see any obvious connection between front and rear moldings.  When Jud Brennan made his copy, he included nice, thin and crisp flats around the lock and side plate.  I am not sure they existed on the original.

dave
"Flick Lives!"

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #17 on: March 15, 2021, 06:30:42 AM »
My IPad doesn't enlarge the pic when you click on them, however from what I can see the moulding isn't connected together. I also agree the lock and sideplate faces were never completely flat. I didn't know if you were aware of Eric's photos or not. Never hurt to have to much information.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5490
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #18 on: March 15, 2021, 02:29:42 PM »
Thanks Flinchrocket,
I agree, you can never have too many photos.  Eric's scholarship concerning the gun is remarkable and fascinating.

dave
"Flick Lives!"

Offline flinchrocket

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1409
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #19 on: March 15, 2021, 04:30:27 PM »
Here is a link to a lock moulding perhaps similar to the Marshall rifle when new. Just a guess.http://www.littlegun.info/arme%20allemande/artisan%20u-z/wenzel%20bolkantiques-03.jpg

Offline Clowdis

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 297
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #20 on: March 16, 2021, 02:13:31 AM »

  The photos of the original gun are not at all clear that the molding connected front and rear on the bottom.  It appears to me more like an early pattern Brown Bess on which the front and rear aprons fade out without connecting.  The other detail is I do not think there was any appreciable flat around the lock or side plate.  We always ascribe those rounded surfaces to 200 years of wear but I do not think they existed on the original gun except perhaps as a hair line of flat.  I would appreciate some thoughts and opinions. 

dave

Dave,
It looks to me like the front and rear aprons were connected by an incised line continuing off the relief. It also appears that the flat areas around the lockplate were very thin. Thin flats around the lockplate combined with an incised line just beneath connecting the front and rear reliefs may also help to explain the chipping of the lock moldings along the bottom. The incised line would have made this area much more fragile. What do you think?

Offline Wayne Holcombe

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #21 on: March 21, 2021, 06:26:21 PM »
A number of years ago John Bivins did an article on the Marshall rifle.It was a very in depth study.

Offline Wayne Holcombe

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2021, 09:13:45 PM »
Google John and found an article where some one hit the high points on the evaluation of the Marshall rifle.I also googled Eric Kettenburg and he had a couple of articles on the Marshall rifles and other Moravian info from the Carolinas.

Offline smart dog

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 5490
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2021, 01:13:39 AM »
Hi Wayne,
Thank you so much for directing me to those resources.  I read Eric's online article several times over the years and it is extremely helpful.  I haven't seen Bivin's Muzzleblasts story about the Marshall rifle published in the 1980s.  I was aware of it just never found a copy to read.  Thanks again, Wayne and also thank you Flinchrocket and Clowdis.  I decided on a plan after absorbing all your comments and input from Bob Lienemann.  I am going to proceed to do something like the gun for which Flinchrocket provided a link, and incise a shallow line connecting the aprons on the bottom.  Clowdis, I agree that the molding on the bottom of the original rifle contributed to the chipping and breaking in that area.  It will create a somewhat fragile area on my version too.  In fact, when moldings are rounded right up to the edge of the lock mortice as were many early original rifles and muskets, the edge of the lock mortice is more fragile than if a flat is established.  However, I am trying to adhere to the original as closely as I can on this project. I am going to round the molding right up to the lock leaving no flat and then just before staining, I will swipe the top of the lock mortice and side plate panel with sandpaper backed by a flat piece of wood to create a tiny flat edge.     

dave
"Flick Lives!"

Offline elkhorne

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 396
Re: Progress on an Edward Marshall Rifle
« Reply #24 on: March 24, 2021, 05:26:08 AM »
Wayne,
Do you know what issue and year Bivenís Article on the Marshall rifle appeared? If we can find out the year and issue, all can look it up on the NMLRA website. Thanks.
elkhorne