Jaeger Kit Build Questions

[JLSawyer]

Hello All,

So I have decided to keep the jaeger kit that I got for a really good price. It is the standard generic jaeger rifle kit from TOTW. It has all the attributes that guys who know jaeger rifles cringe at (maple stock, Davis banana lock plate, generic hardware, et al.) I’m not looking for a debate on what’s wrong with it. I’m aware of all that and have decided to build it regardless for practice purposes. It should also serve as a decent hunting gun when finished. Anyway...I started draw filing the Colerain barrel last night and during that monotonous tedium I thought of some general build questions to ask more experienced guys here.

The stock came inlet for the Davis lock and double set triggers but the forestock was left square with the exception of bump outs (dog knots?) where the entry thimble is. Should I leave these or rasp them off?





The lock is the R.E. Davis Germanic jaeger lock. It’s hideous and I don’t like it anymore than the next guy but the stock is inlet for it and the lock mortise is too big for any other commercial Germanic lock so I’m stuck with it. I went ahead and purchased the upgraded hammer, top jaw, and screw but now that I see it I’m second guessing it. Proportionately speaking it almost looks too big for the rest of the lock but I’ll use it if it’s more appropriate. What is the benefit to using it and should I use it? Is the functionality of the lock improved at all?



The butt stock has the typical slightly curved fish belly along the bottom. Should I leave it this way or plane it flat? Also the wrist area seems ridiculously thick. Is this normal or should I be bring dimensions down almost to something seen on later longrifles?





I’m not crazy at all about the thimbles that came with the kit and was thinking of replacing them with a set of early thimbles from MBS. Would these be appropriate? Pictured here are both the set that came with the kit and what I may replace them with.





I appreciate any help and input on this. Take care.

[David Rase]

Personally, I have not seen a Jaeger with a dog not so I would take the dog knot off.  I was always taught to believe that the dog knot was used as a grip enhancer for when a bayonet was used.  A Jaeger rifle  is not quite long enough for me to use in a bayonet fight and as a German hunter I would be carrying a hanger sword if I needed to stab an animal.  I also think it would distract from the lines of a rifle that short. 
David   

[Gaeckle]

Just gotta ask: why is the  Davis Germanic lock hideous?

[JLSawyer]

Just gotta ask: why is the  Davis Germanic lock hideous?

Just my personal preference I guess. Don’t mean any offense to those who might like the look of it.  Not a fan of the exaggerated banana look.

[Daryl]

I thought it looked fine.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Mr. Sawyer...what reference books do you have?  What original rifles are you attempting to emulate?  What research have YOU done so far?

[JLSawyer]

Mr. Sawyer...what reference books do you have?  What original rifles are you attempting to emulate?  What research have YOU done so far?

I have purchased and am currently reading Shumway’s jaeger book right now and just internet/forum research. I also have Kindig’s Kaufman’s and Shumway’s other books. But nothing I’ve seen in these book really resemble the jaeger kit I have.

[t.caster]

That lock may look big and awkward but it is a fine working working lock! I have one on my first Jaeger from 38 years ago. (bottom one in pic) I've taken more deer with that .62 cal rifle than any weapon ever owned, and even a record book black bear! It never let me down in competition shooting or hunting!

[Rmjchas]

I am just finishing my first jaeger build using a colerain barrel, davis lock, and a cherry blank.  Unfortunately, Shumway's book on Jaeger's doesn't provide much in the way of measurements.  I found TOTWs full size plan helpful in getting a general idea of dimensions.  My wrist ended up 1 5/8 wide and 1 3/4 tall.  My son calls the jager "chonky" compared to a long rifle, and the lock looks just in proportion.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I've built only one Jaeger rifle, and I used Shumway's little paper backed book on Jaeger articles, TOW's rifle plan, and Davis' lock and triggers for my personal rifle build.  In spite of the strange mainspring this lock has served very well, and like Tom C. the rifle was my favourite hunting rifle for many many years, taking deer, black bears and moose as well as head shots on innumerable grouse.  The .60 cal Getz barrel @ 31" length made a very handy hunting arm and could be counted on for consistent accuracy.  I did not find my rifle fat, chunky, or unwieldy in any way.  The design is perfectly suited for hunting, and I suppose that's why it's known as "die buchse fur den jaeger"  Pls. forgive my rough German if I misspelled anything).  But a lovely hunting rifle design.






welcome sign images

[JLSawyer]

I've built only one Jaeger rifle, and I used Shumway's little paper backed book on Jaeger articles, TOW's rifle plan, and Davis' lock and triggers for my personal rifle build.  In spite of the strange mainspring this lock has served very well, and like Tom C. the rifle was my favourite hunting rifle for many many years, taking deer, black bears and moose as well as head shots on innumerable grouse.  The .60 cal Getz barrel @ 31" length made a very handy hunting arm and could be counted on for consistent accuracy.  I did not find my rifle fat, chunky, or unwieldy in any way.  The design is perfectly suited for hunting, and I suppose that's why it's known as "die buchse fur den jaeger"  Pls. forgive my rough German if I misspelled anything).  But a lovely hunting rifle design.






welcome sign images

I am also working using Shumway’s book and TOTW plans.

[Stophel]

The "dog knots" are GROSSLY overdone on modern "Jaeger" rifles (the last time you will see me use that term).  These are things you find on British muskets, and Dutch guns that the British muskets are basically copies of.  A German rifle will often have a raised carved thingy here, but not generally anywhere near the huge boils that so many people insist upon putting on them today.

As to the cocks for the Davis lock, it's up to you, but the newer one will probably be positioned better.  I have found the original one to require a fair amount of bending to get it close to right.

The biggest problem I have with the banana lock (other than the extreme banana, which works for some guns, but not most) are the springs.  The mainspring has WAAAAAAAY too much pre-load, and the hook (when unsprung) will hang like a half inch or more below the bottom of the lockplate.  And they start to bend backwards at half cock.  I close them up some and reharden/temper them and they behave much more nicely.  The ski-ramp frizzen spring could probably also stand flattening out.

The slight fish belly shape is not uncommon, and I would leave that be.

" Also the wrist area seems ridiculously thick. Is this normal or should I be bring dimensions down almost to something seen on later longrifles? "  I find that the wrist are on later longrifles to be ridiculously THIN......    For the wrist, think 1 1/2"+ high and wide.  Depends on the gun.  1 9/16", 1 5/8".....  You start cutting that wrist down to a scrawny 1 1/4" and it will truly be hideous.   

The heavy turned rod pipes work if you're doing something pre-1750, and particularly Prussian/North German in style.  Otherwise, not so much.  I have no idea what triggerguard you have or what the rest of the stock looks like... I can only imagine that it has WAY too much drop at the heel.....   

Your secondary choice of rod pipes have much more broad application.  Cut the rear "skirt" into a pointy or leafy shape to compliment the triggerguard finials.

[Stophel]

I have purchased and am currently reading Shumway’s jaeger book right now and just internet/forum research. I also have Kindig’s Kaufman’s and Shumway’s other books. But nothing I’ve seen in these book really resemble the jaeger kit I have.

You won't likely find much that resembles the kit.   

I have found that some of Mr. Shumway's conclusions/attributions/regions are not quite right, but he admits his research then was just scratching the surface.

Start here:   http://www.hermann-historica-archiv.de/   

[JLSawyer]

The "dog knots" are GROSSLY overdone on modern "Jaeger" rifles (the last time you will see me use that term).  These are things you find on British muskets, and Dutch guns that the British muskets are basically copies of.  A German rifle will often have a raised carved thingy here, but not generally anywhere near the huge boils that so many people insist upon putting on them today.

As to the cocks for the Davis lock, it's up to you, but the newer one will probably be positioned better.  I have found the original one to require a fair amount of bending to get it close to right.

The biggest problem I have with the banana lock (other than the extreme banana, which works for some guns, but not most) are the springs.  The mainspring has WAAAAAAAY too much pre-load, and the hook (when unsprung) will hang like a half inch or more below the bottom of the lockplate.  And they start to bend backwards at half cock.  I close them up some and reharden/temper them and they behave much more nicely.  The ski-ramp frizzen spring could probably also stand flattening out.

The slight fish belly shape is not uncommon, and I would leave that be.

" Also the wrist area seems ridiculously thick. Is this normal or should I be bring dimensions down almost to something seen on later longrifles? "  I find that the wrist are on later longrifles to be ridiculously THIN......    For the wrist, think 1 1/2"+ high and wide.  Depends on the gun.  1 9/16", 1 5/8".....  You start cutting that wrist down to a scrawny 1 1/4" and it will truly be hideous.   

The heavy turned rod pipes work if you're doing something pre-1750, and particularly Prussian/North German in style.  Otherwise, not so much.  I have no idea what triggerguard you have or what the rest of the stock looks like... I can only imagine that it has WAY too much drop at the heel.....   

Your secondary choice of rod pipes have much more broad application.  Cut the rear "skirt" into a pointy or leafy shape to compliment the triggerguard finials.

Stophel,

Thank you for the detailed response. Much appreciated. I’m not sure if my lock has too much pre-load or not. Here are pictures of the internals at rest and at full cock. Please let me know what you see here.





These are my trigger/trigger guard options. I’m leaning more toward closed bow but not married to it yet.



Here are some more pictures of the stock showing the drop at the heel. Too much? Also...the cheek piece? Leave as is or square it up? The wrist currently measures 1.57” top to bottom and 1.47” left to right.

[Stophel]

You can see how the mainspring is bending backwards there.  It really should never bend up like that.  It works, I guess, but it drives me crazy.

By golly, the stock shape doesn't look THAT horribly bad.  They did manage to get the wrist to flow nicely with that lock. And definitely don't try to thin the wrist down.

I can't tell how much drop it has.  I'm sure more than it should, but maybe not too bad.  If you can get your cheek on the side of the stock and actually see the sights, I guess you're good.

Triggerguards.  The top one would, honestly, look rather out of place on the gun.  It's something that you would be more likely to see on something Austrian or Bavarian or somewhere south of the Main river.  Your stock... not so much.  I think the open guard you have would be much more suitable for the stock, though it could use a little reshaping.

The Rococo shaping on the upper triggerguard is somewhat later in form (at least on German guns).  When you see this type of hardware UNengraved, it's a pretty good sign the gun is post 1770.  And definitely doesn't go with bulbous ramrod pipes.  I suppose the buttplate is already inlet, and it's probably the one that matches this triggerguard.

If it was me (and obviously, it's not me), I would use the open bow triggerguard, your choice #2 rod pipes with the skirt filed to a nice pointed shape, and for the buttplate... I would hunt and see if I could find one of the blank brass buttplates that they apparently don't make anymore, and just leave it a long square tang to cover up all the curvy inletting for the rococo buttplate.  But again, that's me.  Yes, you will see German rifles with plain long square buttplate tangs like that.  Don't even need flats or filed rings.      You may just be stuck with the buttplate you've got.  There ain't much choice anymore.

[Ed Wenger]

Hi Josh..., just my two cents, but I’d probably lean towards turning it into more of an Early American piece.  Keep the existing cock, slim down, but wouldn’t eliminate the swell, use the closed guard (love that guard on Early American rifles), and utilize the alternate pipes.  Have fun!  Best,


            Ed

[flinchrocket]

You might also check Mike Brooks website. He has some Jaeger and early American hardware.

[JLSawyer]

You can see how the mainspring is bending backwards there.  It really should never bend up like that.  It works, I guess, but it drives me crazy.

By golly, the stock shape doesn't look THAT horribly bad.  They did manage to get the wrist to flow nicely with that lock. And definitely don't try to thin the wrist down.

I can't tell how much drop it has.  I'm sure more than it should, but maybe not too bad.  If you can get your cheek on the side of the stock and actually see the sights, I guess you're good.

Triggerguards.  The top one would, honestly, look rather out of place on the gun.  It's something that you would be more likely to see on something Austrian or Bavarian or somewhere south of the Main river.  Your stock... not so much.  I think the open guard you have would be much more suitable for the stock, though it could use a little reshaping.

The Rococo shaping on the upper triggerguard is somewhat later in form (at least on German guns).  When you see this type of hardware UNengraved, it's a pretty good sign the gun is post 1770.  And definitely doesn't go with bulbous ramrod pipes.  I suppose the buttplate is already inlet, and it's probably the one that matches this triggerguard.

If it was me (and obviously, it's not me), I would use the open bow triggerguard, your choice #2 rod pipes with the skirt filed to a nice pointed shape, and for the buttplate... I would hunt and see if I could find one of the blank brass buttplates that they apparently don't make anymore, and just leave it a long square tang to cover up all the curvy inletting for the rococo buttplate.  But again, that's me.  Yes, you will see German rifles with plain long square buttplate tangs like that.  Don't even need flats or filed rings.      You may just be stuck with the buttplate you've got.  There ain't much choice anymore.

Stophel,

Being that I have a maple stock, would it be possible to make a more “American” early short barreled rifle with the parts that I have or could get rather than a true jaeger built to a specific standard set by any particular German/Austrian/Swiss school? I don’t know maybe I’m grasping at straws here. Again, my overall goal in all of this is to use this as a practice piece and hunt whitetail with it when it’s completed. For the $600 I paid for it I’m okay with that being it’s fate even if it’s not HC/PC. Tom Curran built two really nice examples of Americanized short barreled rifles that I think are really nice...

https://flintrifles.wordpress.com/

Just a side note...the buttplate has already been inlet with a rococo curves on the tang. Anything with a tang long enough to cover all that up would have to be custom and that skill set eludes me at this point so I think I may be stuck with it.

[Stophel]

I'm a VERY particular person, so my opinions come from that. 

I think ya got what ya got, just go with it.   

[David Rase]

I don't think you should have any problems pulling off an American type rifle with a lot of German influence.  Any of the Moravian rifles, Orter, Marshall as well as RCA #15 would work for a plausible influence.  I say get with the program and make it work.
David   

[JLSawyer]

I don't think you should have any problems pulling off an American type rifle with a lot of German influence.  Any of the Moravian rifles, Orter, Marshall as well as RCA #15 would work for a plausible influence.  I say get with the program and make it work.
David

Amen to that! Can and will do.

[homerifle]

A few years ago in a class we were discussing Jaeger rifles and their influence on American pieces. We talked about the bulge at the rear entry thimble. Someone came up with term "Volle Schlange." German for full snake.

[Not English]

JL, I've got the start of what a respected gunsmith calls an American Jaeger. It has a swamped jaeger barrel and early style lock, with a curly maple stock. It is a hand swamped barrel, 50 cal. Most early colonial gunsmiths were Germanic immigrants had served an "Old Country" apprenticeship before they immigrated. What they built was a response to what they knew and what the colonials wanted. Personally, I think that that era allows a great amount of freedom for interpretation unless you are duplicating a particular rifler or school. Regarding the trigger guard, if you like the top guard but want an open trigger guard, just cut off the back of the bow. With proper filing it will make a really nice older style guard. Bottom line, build what does it for you and don't  pay too much attention to  the people that have really particular opinions that are often correct, but don't reflect what you have in hand.

Dave

[Dave B]

I was taking the carving class back in Bowling green KY when John Bivins was teaching it. Ron Elert was teaching the Jaeger class just on the other side of the main shop. He had several Original jaegers for study. One had a slight Volle Schlange and John asked me to make a mold of the detail for him to take home. It turned out pretty good capturing the entry pipe and the barrel area through the transition at the end of the pipe. It was not large swell but very tastefully done. I also remember being scolded by Ron for taking a tracing of the jager not being a part of his class. He did relent letting me take some measurements. It was the first original Jaeger that I had ever seen or handled. It might have been the Zelner rifle. can't recall now.

[JLSawyer]

JL, I've got the start of what a respected gunsmith calls an American Jaeger. It has a swamped jaeger barrel and early style lock, with a curly maple stock. It is a hand swamped barrel, 50 cal. Most early colonial gunsmiths were Germanic immigrants had served an "Old Country" apprenticeship before they immigrated. What they built was a response to what they knew and what the colonials wanted. Personally, I think that that era allows a great amount of freedom for interpretation unless you are duplicating a particular rifler or school. Regarding the trigger guard, if you like the top guard but want an open trigger guard, just cut off the back of the bow. With proper filing it will make a really nice older style guard. Bottom line, build what does it for you and don't  pay too much attention to  the people that have really particular opinions that are often correct, but don't reflect what you have in hand.

Dave

With regards to the trigger guard, I only prefer the top one for the simple fact that the front extension matches the extension on the butt plate. I like consistency when it comes to things like that but not if it’s going to produce an end product that has fallen too far off the HC/PC rails. On the other hand I’m the one who has to look at it and if the matching extensions are pleasing to my eye and help to calm my OCD tendencies...