New Video - Production Rifling Muzzleloading Barrels

[Jim Kibler]

Here's a video we put together this past weekend.  Questions and comments are always great!

Jim

[smallpatch]

Some one mentioned before.... just make some more barrels, noting to it.  It only takes about an hour.
Wow, and this one isn’t even profiled yet!
Makes you appreciate the amount of work involved.
Just like in the old days, Jim even has to make his own parts to do the cutting.
I hope this helps people understand just how much is involved.
Thanks Jim.

[B.Habermehl]

Having had the privilege of observing barrel rifling methods varying from primitive to early industrial style set ups, yours is the most unique of the new age method. Having left the machining business at the beginning of the CNC era I find it fascinating as well as intimidating. My lack of computer skills make me watch in amazement. I’ve seen and understand sine bar rifling machines as well as the traditional set ups. Yours is the first time I’ve seen the use of a numerically controlled spindle. Best of luck as you improve your set ups and equipment. BJH

[Jim Kibler]

Thanks Dane.  Yes, there's certainly a lot to this whole process of making a kit like we do!  One good thing about this rifling process is that it runs on its own.  Once it's set-up you can walk away until the barrel is finished.

I read on one of the other forums a while back about how someone was eager for a fowler to be offered by us.  His comment was something to the effect of how difficult can it be.  Almost like we should be able to just hit the "Fowler" button on our machines and it will spit out parts!

All the best,
Jim

[markwi]

Thanks, enjoyed watching and learning how it is done, Mark

[oldtravler61]

  Jim the number one thing I admire about your work. Good is never good enough. You are always trying to improve your product.  Well done.

[Greg Pennell]

The impressive thing to me is, that after your initial setup and programming is worked out, changes such as rate of twist, or even gain twist should be relatively easy to accomplish. What do your friends at Green Mountain think of your methodology?  I’ve always been a fan of their products.

Best,
Greg

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Something that occurred to me and made me wonder:  have you put one of your barrels into a rifle and shot it, and if so, let's see a target or six!  Are the grooves and lands equal width?  This I ask, because I personally have a preferrence for narrow lands and wide groves, for ease of loading, cleaning and for superior accuracy.  Would like to see a video on machining the outside too, Jim, complete with barrel tenons.
What a machine!!!

Taylor

[Dave Marsh]

Thanks for posting.  Very impressive.  I too would like to see a video of finishing the outside.  Do you machine the end of the muzzle to prevent patch cutting  or do it by hand?   And press that fowler button pretty soon!!!  LOL  Take care.

Dave

[JPK]

Wow! What a machinist/gunsmith! I’m delighted that some one of this talent has used his time to make guns rather then anything that the trendy market will buy.
Thank you, Jim.

[Tim Crosby]

 Jim, that is a Great operation, I can't get over how those chips just pop out and how the cutter re-indexes itself. That has got to give a great sense of accomplishment. Love to see things at work.

   Tim

[Acer Saccharum]

Wow, Jim, that's genius.

[Daryl]

Yeah- amazing. Well done Kiblers. Looked to me the grooves were just a tich wider than the lands.

[Marcruger]

"Something that occurred to me and made me wonder:  have you put one of your barrels into a rifle and shot it, and if so, let's see a target or six!  Are the grooves and lands equal width?  This I ask, because I personally have a preferrence for narrow lands and wide groves, for ease of loading, cleaning and for superior accuracy.  Would like to see a video on machining the outside too, Jim, complete with barrel tenons."

I was watching the video and thinking the same things.  I was actually thinking you should send a barrel to Daryl and Taylor and let them test it.  :-)     Have you shot one yet Jim?   Green Mountain barrels shoot really well in my experience, so that is a good baseline to test against.   Very cool video, and I like your product.  The built in lugs and dovetails are a nice touch. 

Best wishes,   Marc

[oldtravler61]

Well let's think about this. Jim is a very technical person. He is demanding on what goes out of his shop. So I am quite sure that he has tested his rifling process
to the fifth degree. Before he ever would let the public try an use it.
 When you make something for the general public. Liability is a major concern an his reputation.
Just saying..

[Jim Kibler]

The impressive thing to me is, that after your initial setup and programming is worked out, changes such as rate of twist, or even gain twist should be relatively easy to accomplish. What do your friends at Green Mountain think of your methodology?  I’ve always been a fan of their products.

Best,
Greg

Greg,

Thanks, CNC does allow for changes to be made much more easily.  You know, I'm not sure what Green Mountain would think!  They're a pretty big company and we've had a good business relationship.  They are very good and efficient at what they do.  I've been told they can rifle a barrel in less than half of the time it takes me!  So I'd guess they would probabably think their is a lot of room for improvement!

Rifling isn't really our "bread and butter" though.  We're only doing it because Green Mountain won't cut rifle anything below .40 caliber for us.  I think this is because they really push their process and smaller calibers can be a little more difficult.  So anything .45 and above will be rifled by Green Mountain.

Jim

[Scota4570]

Jim,

What is the width of the grooves relative to lands?   50%/50%?  60%/40%?  70%/30%? 

[Jim Kibler]

Something that occurred to me and made me wonder:  have you put one of your barrels into a rifle and shot it, and if so, let's see a target or six!  Are the grooves and lands equal width?  This I ask, because I personally have a preferrence for narrow lands and wide groves, for ease of loading, cleaning and for superior accuracy.  Would like to see a video on machining the outside too, Jim, complete with barrel tenons.
What a machine!!!

Taylor

There will be more to come on testing and accuracy.  So, the lands and grooves are approximately the same width.  I may experiment with some wider grooves.  I'll be doing .36 caliber barrels next and I may just cut this rifling head down from .40 caliber in order to get things processed quicker.  In this case the grooves will end up being wider than the lands.  Might be good to try.

I'll probably not show machining the outside.  This is a very good and efficient process we have developed that we use on all of our barrels.  I think we'll keep this to ourselves

Thanks,
Jim

[Jim Kibler]

Thank you all for the very nice comments.  It's nice to show a little bit of the process we use to make our products.

Oh, if anyone has experience rifling, I'd love to hear your thoughts... 

All the best,
Jim

[Scota4570]

"There will be more to come on testing and accuracy.  So, the lands and grooves are approximately the same width.  I may experiment with some wider grooves.  I'll be doing .36 caliber barrels next and I may just cut this rifling head down from .40 caliber in order to get things processed quicker.  In this case the grooves will end up being wider than the lands.  Might be good to try."

I look foreword to hearing how it works.  I would be far more interested in a barrel that is a ratio of about 33% land  to 66% groove width than a 50/50.  I think they are easier to get to shoot well, and load easier than a 50-50 ratio.

Using an extra groove or two with the same cutter would widen  the L/G width ratios.  I have no idea how wide the cutter can be before it wants to chatter.  You may have a certain thickness of high speed steel that you are using for your hook cutter and using something wider or thinner may be to labor intensive. 

If it is programable you could use 7 L/G, which would be neat and often seen on originals.

I agree on your depth of grooves 100%.  To deep is bad. 




 

[duca]

Awesome video Jim! What a great Process. Good to hear the .36’s are coming. That’s what I’m waiting on. Just a thought, is it possible to run a double cutter opposite each other? Or maybe off-set of each other. Would speed things up a bit... Keep those Kits coming

Anthony

[Kmcmichael]

Cool video. You should be cutting mine in a month or so!

[smylee grouch]

Very interesting. One of the top barrel makers, now retired told me that a 70% grove-30% land ratio was what he used and his chips comeing out of the operation were like a long thin ribbon just like yours I would guess. Nice work.

[L. Akers]

Very impressive Jim.  Just to toot my own horn, the rifling head I designed for my manually-operated machine back in the 80's is near enough like yours they could be brothers.  It's comforting as an amateur to get professional confirmation that I did something right.  One improvement I made to my HSS cutters was to make the cutting tooth of titanium carbide.  Cutting became much easier and smoother and cutters stayed sharp longer.  Question, do you stress relieve your barrels? If so, at what point in fabrication and what process do you use?

[Jim Kibler]

Thanks again.  I think we'll do some experimenting with wider grooves.  This will be pretty easy to accomplish by just programing for 7 grooves. 

The idea of cutting several grooves at once is interesting and something I've thought about.  The details become pretty difficult though.  One concern is the trying to ensure each cutter would cut in an equal manner.  Depending on the sharpness of one etc., there could be a tendency for preferential cutting.  I guess it may be possible, but would require some real thought and experiementation.

It's nice to hear that other makers achieve a long ribbon-like chip as well.  Everything I've read has indicated that very shallow cuts should be used (.0001-.0002").  This takes forever and doesn't make a chip, but rather it's more like powder. 

We do use a carbide-tipped cutter.  This of course will last much longer than HSS before becoming dull.

The raw barrel stock is stress relieved prior to any machining.  I don't completely recall the cycle, but expect it's done somewhere around 1100F.