Hawken Bag

[Panzerschwein]

In a handful of months the custom J&S Hawken rifle on order should be about done and I’m currently brainstorming and getting ideas together for a bag and horn set for the piece. I’m already about set on a black buffler horn but as for the shooting pouch, I’m not so sure?

I know this board is mainly a showcase for recently completed work and that there are many craftsman here. Anyone care to share thoughts and ideas, or photos, of bags appropriate for a Hawken or other plains rifles era guns?

God bless you and go with Christ,

-Panzer

[rich pierce]

Here’s an original bag that could span a few decades because it’s a simple design. It’s made of one piece of leather, with the flap coming from the neck area of the hide to be thicker. The strap, now missing, may have been attached by buttons on the back side. This one is laced up the sides, not sewn, has “frog hair” fringe, and if you look carefully a V design on the flap. Because of the tooling and fringe I think the maker was skilled.
For questions like these, we miss Chuck Burrows.






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[Cades Cove Fiddler]

... 45 years ago when I first became  involved in shooting muzzleloaders, everyone thought a genuine "HAWKEN" was the gun to shoot, and everyone wanted to look like a Rocky Mountain trapper,... !!! ... here is a western Indian inspired "possibles bag" that I made from an old buckskin jacket,.. !!!

[Prairie dog shooter]

To go with my Hawken rifle I chose a bison horn and a Leatherman bag.  During the time of the Hawken rifle, leather bullet bags were made by harness makers and available commercially in St Louis. 

[jbigley]

During the time of the Hawken rifle, leather bullet bags were made by harness makers and available commercially in St Louis.

PM sent.
Agreed. For further ideas, look no further than Grant's book. Plenty of ideas for Hawken bags, a lot of them plain, square, black leather, single compartment bags.
I do admire the artistry of CCF's bag, though.
--JB

[Daniel Coats]

Here's a beaver tail bag I made 25 or 30 years ago. Bag is a double and lined with material from an old hand woven Mexican pancho. That's an original horn, I no longer have the rifle.

[jbigley]

Here's a beaver tail bag I made 25 or 30 years ago. Bag is a double and lined with material from an old hand woven Mexican pancho. That's an original horn, I no longer have the rifle.

I like that bag, Daniel. --JB

[heinz]

I recommend you take a look at Bill Smith's bags.  Very similar to professionally made bags of the early 19th century
https://billsmithblackpowder.com

[alacran]

Here's a beaver tail bag I made 25 or 30 years ago. Bag is a double and lined with material from an old hand woven Mexican pancho. That's an original horn, I no longer have the rifle.

Wondering if Pancho enjoyed being weaved.

[Greg Pennell]

Here's a beaver tail bag I made 25 or 30 years ago. Bag is a double and lined with material from an old hand woven Mexican pancho. That's an original horn, I no longer have the rifle.

Wondering if Pancho enjoyed being weaved.

The hard part is, first you have to cut him into thin strips and dry him out in the sun, before the weaving can commence...

Greg

[Panzerschwein]

I’ve read the D rings attaching the strap to some bags is a more modern thing. Thoughts?

[Panzerschwein]

Would a double bag be appropriate for this era (1840s 1850s) and for use with a plains rifle of this type? The rifle is being made by W.B. Selb and will be a copy of a standard taper-barrel J&S Hawken taking 28 balls to the pound.

[rich pierce]

I’m not sure how many bags reckoned to be of 1825-1850 trapper/rendezvous/plainsman period are based on original examples and which have their roots in 1960s-1970s leatherwork styles. I recall repurposing a super heavy 1970s leather bag to be my “possibles bag” during those fun years.

[Clark Badgett]

I’m not sure how many bags reckoned to be of 1825-1850 trapper/rendezvous/plainsman period are based on original examples and which have their roots in 1960s-1970s leatherwork styles. I recall repurposing a super heavy 1970s leather bag to be my “possibles bag” during those fun years.

Most drawings from the era, for whites anyway, pretty much show plain flapped bags. I've seen more ornate styles from areas where there was more Hispanic cultural influence. We like to add a Hollywood element these days.

[Notchy Bob]

Would a double bag be appropriate for this era (1840s 1850s) and for use with a plains rifle of this type? The rifle is being made by W.B. Selb and will be a copy of a standard taper-barrel J&S Hawken taking 28 balls to the pound.

There is a two-compartment pouch shown on page 21 of The Mountain Man's Sketchbook, Volume II.  It really is essentially a "double bag, rather than a single pouch with a divider.  Notes in the book indicate the original is in the Museum of the Fur Trade, and the pouch is made of black leather.  The drawing in the book is about 3/4 size, so the actual pouch is probably about 8'' square, maybe a bit larger than average for pouches of that era.

Here is a period drawing by Rudolph Friedrich Kurz of an original pouch, horn, and Hawken rifle from about 1851.  All of this kit belonged to Edwin Thompson Denig, who was the bourgeois of Fort Union:



That looks like quite a large horn, probably from a domestic bovine rather than a bison.  The flap of the pouch appears to have a "tail," partially hidden by the horn, that tucks under a "keeper" to secure it.  The strap arrangement is especially interesting... there is a wide, non-adjustable bandolier, with four shorter straps with buckles.  The buckles on the smaller straps provide some adjustment for length, but also allow adjusting the relative positions of the horn and bag to each other, or even completely removing the bag and/or horn independently.  Ingenious!

This old southern pouch and horn in the MESDA has the strap set up in essentially the same way:



For a more rustic look, this rig from a previous Cowan's Auction has always appealed to me, although I can't positively say it dates to the right time or place for you:



Finally, this pouch, collected from the Assiniboine people and currently in the AMNH, was more likely used with a trade gun than a Hawken, but I don't think it would be an inappropriate choice for you:



You might also look online for paintings and drawings by Karl (or Carl) Bodmer, Alfred Jacob Miller, George Catlin, or Charles Deas.  All of them were accomplished artists who visited the west and saw plainsmen in their element.

We'll want to see that rifle, pouch, and horn after you've gotten it all together, you know...

Notchy Bob

[Panzerschwein]

Thank you so, gents! The Hawken Brandt Selb is making for me will be specced out as close to the typical extant specimens as possible. Plain straight grained strong maple, rust blued barrel, genuine case hardened lock and mountings, and a poured pewter nose cap in place of silver plating. I've had it on order for close to a year and a half and it shouldn't be too long now.

I love the bag ideas! Thanks for helping me gang and YES I'll be showing them when it is done