FFFG Swiss in a 54 Cal.

[clambdin]

I have always shot FFG Goex in my 54 Cal. Hawken but yesterday I tried FFFG Swiss 90 grains yielded better accuracy than the FFG...Is it a good idea to be shooting FFFG in a 54 Cal ?

[Roger Fisher]

Well now 'pends' how much!!

[Dphariss]

I shoot 90 grains of FFFG Swiss in a 54. Good accuracy and better velocity than 100 gr of FFFG Goex.
I have used FFFG in rifles to 58 caliber for years with no problem.
I have had one 54 that required 120 gr of FFFG Goex to get any accuracy from it.
Dan

[roundball]

I have always shot FFG Goex in my 54 Cal. Hawken but yesterday I tried FFFG Swiss 90 grains yielded better accuracy than the FFG...Is it a good idea to be shooting FFFG in a 54 Cal ?

I happen to use Goex, not Swiss, but I've settled on 3F as my first choice for everything.
I initially bought some Goex 2F for larger bores like the .58 & .62cals because I'd read that it would be easier in the recoil department but the bottom line is that 3F has been faster, cleaner, and at least as accurate / sometimes more accurate so I don't bother much with 2F anymore.
Same with the smoothbores...3F actually gives me a better shot pattern than 2F and theoretically should get the payload out of the bore quicker too.

Rule of thumb is to reduce 2F load data by 10-15% to keep the pressure in the same balkpark...ie: 90grns 3F in place of 100grns 2F.  (90grns Goex 3F happens to be the typical powder charge I use in most rifle calibers).
If what I've read about Swiss is true...that it's 'hotter' than Goex...then the reduction should make even more sense, at least as a starting point.

[bob in the woods]

My standard load in my .54 has been 80 gr of 3F for years.  You never can tell with these guns. My .45 likes 2F.   Go figure.

[BrownBear]

Same here.  Both of my 54's like 80 grains of Goex 3f.  I went all the way up to 100 grains with no improvement in accuracy, and 80 grains provides all the geewhiz I've ever needed on game.  I'm with roundball on the 2f.  It works in my guns, but 3f works as well or better in all of them.  Much easier to just work with one granulation.  So now what am I going to do with the half dozen cans of 2f sitting around?  Shootum.  And replace with 3f.

[roundball]

So now what am I going to do with the half dozen cans of 2f sitting around?

Same here...have about 8 cans left from a case I bought about 10 years ago...one thing I realized this year sighting in the .new .58cal was to use 2F for most of my initial sighting in then fine tune it with 3F...can burn up a can of 2F pretty quick using 100grn charges...

[clambdin]

Thanks guys ! I feel better now.

[Herb]

I compared Goex and Swiss in a Henry Albright flintlock I built.  Used .530 Hornady balls, pillow ticking and leather over-powder wads.  All 80 grain loads.  Goex 3F, six shots averaged 1652 fps, 90 fps spread.  Goex 2F, five shots 1519 and 41.  Swiss 3F,  five shots 1810 and 103.  Swiss 2F, five shots 1724 and 25 spread.
I used Swiss 1 1/2 in three different .58 rifles and like it.  But a load of 100 to 120 grains fouls the bore so much that I wipe between shots, which I have never done before.  The bores foul at about the first six inches, can hardly seat a ball after two or three shots unless the bore is wiped.  I had to use an OPW.  120 grains of Goex 2F (1978 Moosic, PA) and a .570 ball gave 1719 fps, 43 spread.  But 2005 Minden, LA Goex 2F gave 1617 fps, 28 spread.  Could load without wiping, but later went to wiping.  Swiss 1 1/2 gave 1831 fps, 25 spread, but I had to wipe to get the ball to seat.  100 grains of Goex 3F gave 1614 fps and I could load without wiping.  120 grains gave only 1624 fps!  Will test that again.

[Gene Carrell]

Swiss does leave an area  or ring of very hard fouling at the bottom. If you are not accustomed to cleaning the bore btw shots, beware.

[40Haines]

FFF for most all of my stuff.

Roundball said "I'd read that it would be easier in the recoil department "

I haven't noticed it to much in the .54, but, there is a noticeable difference in the .62.

[Herb]

I reshot that Goex 3F test today, using my .58 fullstock flint TOW Hawken I just built.  Was planning to take it on my spike bull elk hunt in the Book Cliffs next  month, but may sell this and use my .54 Bridger Hawken I built.  Ballistics will be very similar at about 1800 fps.  100 grains of Goex 3F and .562 balls gave 1631 fps, 25 spread.  120 grains gave 1754 fps/52 spread.  120 grains of Swiss 1 1/2 gave 1835/61.  Same with .570 balls gave 1809/24 for five, group 2.8 inches at 100 yards, rest.  120 grains of Swiss 2 and .570's gave 1843 fps/50, 2.25" group of five at 100 yards.  Had to use over powder wads and wipe between shots.
geneC, thanks for adding your comment.  Everyone else talks about how clean burning Swiss powder is, but you tell it like it is.

[B Shipman]

FFF  creates higher pressures than FF. FFF is going to burn a little cleaner.  Now we see 13/16 .50's and .54 7/8th in. "Huntin' guns."  Swamped barrels with narrow waists. So we choose cleaner burning powder with heavy laods with skinny barrels.This is all good until we make a mistake at the wrong time.  I make mistakes all the time.

[Dphariss]

FFF  creates higher pressures than FF. FFF is going to burn a little cleaner.  Now we see 13/16 .50's and .54 7/8th in. "Huntin' guns."  Swamped barrels with narrow waists. So we choose cleaner burning powder with heavy laods with skinny barrels.This is all good until we make a mistake at the wrong time.  I make mistakes all the time.

A short started ball will not care what the powder granulation is. Its gonna ring or break the barrel
Double powder/ball is not going to hurt a barrel made from the proper steel.
I just proofed a B weight 38" GM 50 with a 160 grains of FFFG Swiss and 2 balls. It has a .725 waist.

Dan

[roundball]

FFF  creates higher pressures than FF.

I believe the key to substituting 3F for 2F is to reduce the 2F load data by 10-15% to keep the pressures in the same ballpark...ie: in place of 100grns 2F, only use 85-90grns 3F.

[Herb]

Here are photos of my 100 yard targets with 120 grains of Swiss 2 and Swiss 1 1/2, shot with my Track of Wolf Hawken I just finished.

I don't know why shots 4 and 5 are out of the left group.  Probably the light and my holding.  And I don't know why the Swiss 2 grouped right of the Swiss 1 1/2, must be the way I saw these targets.   The bottom red target was with 100 and 120 grains of Goex 3F.  That tight cloverleaf has 2 of 100 and one of 120 grains.
I was sighting in for a spike bull elk hunt next month, but rather than risk scarring up this rifle when I want to sell it, I'll use my .54 Bridger Hawken I built.

[rsells]

Been using 70 gr if FFFg in my 54 for eleven year.  A lot of hunting and a lot of competitions with no issues.  It liked this charge of 3F better than anything else.  The charge is a bit lower than I expected, but the group would open up as I went above 70 gr. 
                                                                     Roger Sells

[Dphariss]

I don't know why shots 4 and 5 are out of the left group.  Probably the light and my holding.  And I don't know why the Swiss 2 grouped right of the Swiss 1 1/2, must be the way I saw these targets.   The bottom red target was with 100 and 120 grains of Goex 3F.  That tight cloverleaf has 2 of 100 and one of 120 grains.
 I was sighting in for a spike bull elk hunt next month, but rather than risk scarring up this rifle when I want to sell it, I'll use my .54 Bridger Hawken I built.

A little breeze, or temporary lack of it if you have a steady breeze, will easily move a ball this far out of the group at 100 yards.

Dan

[Mad Monk]

Swiss does leave an area  or ring of very hard fouling at the bottom. If you are not accustomed to cleaning the bore btw shots, beware.

When you see that ring of HARD fouling that is an indication that the charge is a little more than it ought to be.  It is an indication of very high gas temperatures that fuses a portion of the fouling into a glass-like state.

When the Swiss first arrived in the U.S. in 2000 I tried it.  Using 3F in my .45 longrifle I found that a point was reached in charge volume where this baking ring would appear.  Backing off just a few grains the ring would go away.  The same was found in my .50 caliber rifles.

That baked ring has nothing to do with the quality or clean burning properties of the powder.  It is strictly a point of a little too much powder in the charge.  I saw the same identical thing with the first KIK powder that GOEX imported in 2000 and the same thing in a shipment of WANO that went to LunaTech in Georgia at that time.

BP fouling is mainly potassium sulfate and potassium carbonate.  Each one has a critical temperature where the minute particles formed during powder combustion become agglomerated and then fused into a glass-like mass.  This relates to gas temperatures behinbd the projectile as the projectile first begins to move in the bore.

The Swiss powder produces higher gas temperatures compared to GOEX and the first KIK had a higher combustion temperature compared to GOEX.