Author Topic: Re: Original Rifle Photos  (Read 4487 times)

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« on: March 05, 2021, 09:23:45 PM »
Michael Briggs made the comment below in my topic on an original Gillespie longrifle. I wanted to ask members to feel free to post photos of their original rifles so we can see what the old gun makers turned out. We have many members that rarely see an original longrifle, lets get them hooked on these old guns :).
I created this new topic to stir up some interest. Comments are welcome.
Dennis

It is great to come to this site and see great old longrifles again.  I for one was getting tired of only seeing muskets, fowlers, and shotguns. (laughs)

Michael
I agree with Michael, I build and enjoy seeing contemporary guns but my first love is American longrifles of all kinds. I encourage all members to post photos of your antique longrifles. If you wish to remain anonymous or have problems posting, send them to me at webadmin@americanlongrifles.org and I will post them for you in either your topic with your text or I can post them without your name/user-id. If you would like them posted in the ALR library I can do that as well but would want to confirm originality and verify that the stated area/maker is correct or state as unknown/etc.
Dennis
« Last Edit: March 05, 2021, 10:05:33 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline JTR

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #1 on: March 05, 2021, 10:40:23 PM »
So Dennis, what do you think; Do you need to currently own the gun to post pictures? Or can it be a gun that you have owned, but since sold?
John Robbins

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #2 on: March 05, 2021, 11:19:24 PM »
If you have photos that were taken by you, you can do anything you want with them.  They're your property.

Photos taken by others may be subject to copyright.

The object of the photos has absolutely nothing to do with it.  If you made verbal commitments to someone in order to take a photo, that's a photographer/subject issue but in most cases, the photographer owns the rights.  So then, it becomes an issue of one's "word" or honor.
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Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2021, 11:40:30 PM »
Eric raises the issue of a 'copyright.' In my experience, admittedly limited, if you have a professional photographer take photos of your pieces, that individual owns the copyright on those photographs. It is a tricky bit of law and lawyering that could be a problem. I used two professionals to do some work. One did not care what I did with the photos and did not extend any copyright while the second did and I am bound by that. I had some powder horns photographed and found that I needed to get the fellows permission to have them printed in a horn book.
Perplexing to say the least. Seems to have come out of 'printers' law' and who owns what. So, guess what I am saying is be careful who you chose to do the work and have a clear agreement on your rights.
Dick

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #4 on: March 06, 2021, 01:01:40 AM »
So Dennis, what do you think; Do you need to currently own the gun to post pictures? Or can it be a gun that you have owned, but since sold?

John,
I would think its ok to post photos of guns that you have owned, not a problem with me. I do want to say that if a current owner objected about displaying photos of his gun, I would be inclined to honor his request to remove the photos (even though if you made the photos you own the copyright to the photos).
Dennis
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2021, 01:06:25 AM »
Eric raises the issue of a 'copyright.' In my experience, admittedly limited, if you have a professional photographer take photos of your pieces, that individual owns the copyright on those photographs. It is a tricky bit of law and lawyering that could be a problem. I used two professionals to do some work. One did not care what I did with the photos and did not extend any copyright while the second did and I am bound by that. I had some powder horns photographed and found that I needed to get the fellows permission to have them printed in a horn book.
Perplexing to say the least. Seems to have come out of 'printers' law' and who owns what. So, guess what I am saying is be careful who you chose to do the work and have a clear agreement on your rights.
Dick
Dick is correct, notice I said " if you made the photos you own the copyright to the photos". Whom ever actually took the photo owns/owned the copyright unless he conveyed the copyright to another party. Some photographers care, some don't but like Dick said it can become a "lawyering" problem.
Dennis
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2021, 01:14:12 AM »
I'm just going to say it - as long as the owner either past or present is not identified, then the only reason I can see for someone objecting to photos of any given gun being posted is because it may reveal the existence of restoration work or other modification.

Photos of the same rifle, for example, displaying two clearly different locks, or clearly different barrel lengths etc., may surely create somewhat of a 'oh $#@*' situation.

This has ALWAYS been the case.
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Offline mountainad82

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2021, 01:29:02 AM »
Dennis,
Great idea! I will post my latest original this evening. Can’t wait to see what everyone else has to share.

Adam Wright

Offline JTR

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2021, 02:38:14 AM »
Thanks, I was just curious regarding pictures I took of a rifle or pistol I owned at the time, but have since sold.
If the current owner objects, then sure, pull it.
John
John Robbins

Offline Ken G

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Re: Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2021, 03:33:25 AM »
I've always been concerned about posting pictures from shows like the upcoming TN KY Rifle Show.  The collectors that display there guns have always been incredibly gracious in allowing me to photograph the rifles and various features.
My concern is how they might feel if someone told them "Oh I saw pictures of your gun posted over on ALR?  I'm I messing it up for the next person asking to take pictures? 

Thanks,
Ken
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Offline Tanselman

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2021, 05:58:57 AM »
When you photograph someone else's rifle or accoutrement, there has always been, in my mind, an assumption that it is for your private use. If you have thoughts about sharing the pictures with others, I think you have a responsibility to ask the owner if it is OK to do so and abide by his wishes... and even moreso if you want to publish or post them for everyone to see. This fraternity of gun collecting has been built for years on trust and mutual enjoyment. It's easy to get permission from an owner, or find out if he prefers his rifle staying "fresh" and  "under wraps."  When we start breaking the mutual trust, i.e. using the pictures in ways the original owner never thought would happen, I think we begin to erode that trust and sharing that we've all come to love and enjoy.

An owner should not have to contact this site and request pictures of his or her rifle be taken down. That obviously means he/she didn't want it exposed before, was never asked, and  now the gun has been exposed against their wishes. I think any pictures that are publicly posted should be cleared with the owner of the gun before posting. If you don't know if the owner is OK with posting, then don't post it, and pick something else to post.

I have used photos pulled off auction sites in a number of publications, always with the permission of the auction house or seller. I cannot ever remember being turned down in my request to use their posted photos, as long as I gave proper credit to the auction house [or seller] with the photo.

Shelby Gallien

Offline blienemann

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #11 on: March 06, 2021, 06:14:20 AM »
I wanted to share a little of what I've learned in the last few years while working on the Moravian Gunmaking books, journals and magazine articles. Scott might add a little from his perspective, having managed a press and published many items.

Many collectors, museums and helpers have shared photos with me - some taken by them and some taken by others. I am clear that these are for my study use only, and that I will not share, post or publish unless I come back to them and receive permission first. Maintaining trust and respect is important, or the info that we all learn from can dry up fast.

Museums often have formal copyright and print policies, and usually charge fees based upon how many copies of what sort of publication is intended. For several of the rifles in these books, I contracted for a single use in a hardcover book printing 1,000 copies. In some cases another photographer went there and shot the photos, after arranging access to the gun. (By the way, this is a great chance for the student and photographer to show the art and history in the old guns, to improve museum staff's understanding of firearms, and to open doors for future study.) So these photos belong to the photographer, but access to the rifle belongs to the museum, and I still feel bound to not use them further without going back to the original party that made this all possible. While individuals usually do not have a formal policy, I think it's best to treat all the same, and ask their preferences. I'm concerned that if I breech these agreements, my actions will mess it up for the next folks.

Working on access to arms in another country adds another level of detail, but with help from friends there, we were successful, including permission from her Majesty the Queen. That is pretty cool. So many of our early arms were carried to Britain or the Continent, and once we get to know one another, we are all one big family of admirers of these bits of art and history.

If I submit an article to one magazine, they expect some "exclusive" use of that material for a time, so I don't want to publish the same material somewhere else. And I don't want to compete with others who may be working toward publishing something themselves. I guess my approach is to ask, listen and follow through in a way that all are as comfortable as possible. Back to Dennis' original post, he wanted to "encourage all members to post photos of their own antique longrifle". That seems pretty safe if these are their photos of their currently owned rifle. But we wander into critique, which might make past, present or future owners uncomfortable. I'm as guilty of this as anyone, and need to control myself. This could also cause problems for Dennis and the site, which we value highly.

Thanks for all your comments and suggestions, I listen and learn. And I see that Shelby has just nailed it, again! Bob

Offline Bob D

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #12 on: March 06, 2021, 08:54:41 AM »
Great Idea  Dennis.  Do we need a definition of "original"?   For instance are we talking about a rifle that is exactly as the gunsmith made it and uncleaned and unaltered?  (Original lock, original barrel length. unpolished plates and inlays, wood hasn't been polished, etc.}   Maybe as the gunsmith made it but with necessary repairs and needed cleaning. 

This is a great forum,  I have learned much from the contributors and I look forward to seeing the rifles submitted under this subject.       Bob D

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #13 on: March 06, 2021, 04:30:31 PM »
I want to clarify that I agree wholeheartedly with Shelby and Bob; this approach is exactly why I commented with respect to giving your word or the concept of honor when being permitted to take a photo.

To play devil's advocate, however, how far does restraining publication of photos (whether online or in print) extend?  For example, I have photos of numerous pieces that were taken at the time they were owned by any given individual, but have since been auctioned, or the owner with whom I may have had an agreement has passed and the pieces have 'moved on' either via private sale or via auction or donation etc.

The field of antique arms is one of the only areas of which I'm aware wherein photography is approached with such delicacy.  I have been involved either cursorily or more directly in a number of other antique or collectible fields and the 'fear' of photography in other fields - in my experience - doesn't even come close.  About the only comparison I could make more directly would be in dealing with highly valuable antique guitars by certain manufacturers, and interestingly enough, it is also a field in which not only are fakes an ever-present concern but also a field in which restoration and modification is also frequently encountered.
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Offline rich pierce

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #14 on: March 06, 2021, 05:01:00 PM »
Bingo.

Should we re-name the topic to “ original gun photo copyright discussion”?
Andover, Vermont

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #15 on: March 06, 2021, 06:58:29 PM »
 ??? ???...I've been watching this topic with surprised amusement,.... I just cannot understand why anyone would get butt-hurt over someone taking or shareing a picture of an old gun,...???  ...... I like to look at the photos to study,... for some folks that is the only way they will ever have to see and appreciate these rifles,... most folk taking pictures will not profit by selling them or printing in a book, and sure as $#*! won't make money by posting them here for us to enjoy,...!!!... I'm proud of the old hog rifles I have "rescued" and glad to share with others  by photo or in person,... most of the collectors I know have been generous with me in that respect also,...so, as for and mine,... take all the pictures you want and share them anywhere,.. !!! .... regards,.... Cades Cove Fiddler..   


Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #16 on: March 06, 2021, 07:45:23 PM »
Ha!  My post #7 puts it pretty bluntly as to why the potential butt hurt.  I honestly can not think of any other legitimate reason because you are correct, nobody is making any real money off photos of old crusty guns with a very specific and limited market.  Bob is much more knowledgeable than I re: the costs and profit involved in publishing books but I'm pretty sure he didn't rush right out and buy a Mercedes!  Or maybe he did?   ;D ;D ;D  I truly don't know.
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Offline spgordon

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #17 on: March 06, 2021, 07:57:53 PM »
The issue isn't that the person circulating the photos will make $$. The issue is that the institutions that own the items (or own the photos) want to make $$, as well as to control how images of the material that they control circulate.

So the Historical Society of PA may give me permission to publish with one of my articles an image of a portrait they own in a particular journal. I cannot use that image in another journal article. I have to go back to HSP to ask again (and to pay again).

Often when you visit archives, you sign a form saying that any photographs that you take of any document are for "personal use" and to use them in any other way--a publication--you need to obtain further permission (and pay a fee).

None of this, though, quite matches the situation in the rifle collecting world where most of the objects being photographed are in private hands and the photography took place under some unwritten agreement between owner and photographer.
« Last Edit: March 06, 2021, 08:08:15 PM by spgordon »
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
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Offline Craig Wilcox

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #18 on: March 06, 2021, 08:18:13 PM »
I have been, and still am, a believer that, if you pay someone to take a picture, then you have BOUGHT the picture, and what you do with it is totally up to you.

If you buy a rifle, for example, that rifle belongs to you, no matter if the seller actually made the rifle or not.  You can go shoot it, modify it, loan it to someone (responsible, I hope!), or give it away.  The maker/seller has no further right to the product.
Craig Wilcox
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Offline eastwind

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #19 on: March 06, 2021, 08:38:04 PM »
   In the 1960s the Supreme Court ruled that the creator of a work- photographer, musician, writer, etc. owned all rights to his/her work. He/she can do whatever they want with it within legal limits -pornography etc.
If he sells the image to a public entity for their use—a book/ magazine publisher, or digital forum/website, etc. the publisher/website owns half of those rights (in most cases), but his rights are somewhat limited- depending on the agreement between photographer and publisher. Most publications and museums have been through this legal maze and ask for contracts, which should state any limitations such as how long to use (the specific dated book/article, etc.) and one-time -no further use or maybe forever. Coverage - the standard in books, magazines is the publisher buys North American rights. Of course, with digital this gets sticky, and you can’t own International Rights in most cases.
   Example: The ALR forum would own half of your photo, but could not send it to another entity, without your permission. If done properly ALR should create a photog contract outlining such points or at least post them on the site. The courts will consider “previous notice” in such matters. I know this is tough among friends but think of this. By the way, these rules apply to photos whether sold or given free.
You send in a rifle photo you thought you took it but have too many to remember for sure. But you innocently send it to ALR, a publisher or any other public entity.
When it gets published the owner of the photo and maybe the gun sees it and doesn’t like it. Sues both you and ALR. In turn ALR sues you – all because you didn’t have an agreement avoiding such possibility.
   Here’s another: You go to your buddy’s gunroom and photo his gun. You own the physical photo but are not totally free to distribute it, without his permission, because you took it a private situation.
You go to a gunshow and see a gun on the table- you photograph it. You own the photo and, in most cases, can distribute it, because you took it in a public venue. Fact is, you don’t legally have to ask permission, but naturally it is the best thing to do and best to say how you intend to use it – “can I share it” etc.?
   In this world of constant buying and selling of guns, I see a problem that comes up, and probably should be addressed. You photo a gun privately, the owner sells it to someone else or maybe he dies. Can you use it? Probably, if the poor guy is dead. But maybe the next owner doesn’t know you have a photo of his gun and will be unhappy about seeing it in print or online. If you had good solid permission from the original owner, you may be protected against suit. Maybe.
    In 40+ years of publishing books and magazines my favorite case was the lady who sued my magazine and the photographer for showing a photograph, (a large clear color pic), of her husband hugging another women on the boardwalk in Ocean City, Maryland. She claimed it embarrassed her and she wanted the photos, including the out-takes for her legal backup for a divorce.
The judge threw it out of court, because as a publisher of a publicly distributed publication the photographer and I had protected copyrights since the couple was in a public situation. And no, she couldn’t have any of our photos. A hotel room photo of the couple would have been far different.
Moral of story: Get a contract or understanding, think of the worst case, get friendly permission to use photos (in writing if not too obnoxious) and never, never, walk down the boardwalk with anyone but your wife.
Patrick Hornberger
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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #20 on: March 06, 2021, 08:42:25 PM »
^^^^^

Great stuff!  And I should say, the last line is the most important.
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #21 on: March 06, 2021, 09:26:49 PM »
Yes some good info has been posted. My original statements were regarding photos that YOU had made yourself of a gun you owned at the time. I NEVER endorse you displaying photos you took of rifles at gun shows unless you have permission of the owner that allows you to display them publicly.
Dennis
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Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #22 on: March 06, 2021, 09:52:45 PM »
 :D ??? ::) ::) ::)... guess some folk aren't proud of their guns and just want to brag and not have pix shared,.... stay butt-hurt,... I'll never mind if anyone shares pix of any of mine,  whether she be worth $1K, or $20K...  value of gun is in the mind of owner anyway,...
 

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #23 on: March 06, 2021, 10:47:02 PM »
So again, I introduce the issue:  someone allows you to take photos of a piece and allows you to do what you wish with them.  Then years later, the owner passes or auctions the gun.  Are you obligated to contact the new owner or auction house?  I don't think so.  That's just nuts.
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Offline spgordon

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #24 on: March 06, 2021, 11:05:59 PM »
I don't think so either, Eric.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook