Author Topic: Re: Original Rifle Photos  (Read 4491 times)

Offline spgordon

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #25 on: March 06, 2021, 11:08:49 PM »
   Most publications and museums have been through this legal maze and ask for contracts, which should state any limitations such as how long to use (the specific dated book/article, etc.) and one-time -no further use or maybe forever. Coverage - the standard in books, magazines is the publisher buys North American rights. Of course, with digital this gets sticky, and you can’t own International Rights in most cases.

Right--this is exactly what I meant. A museum or archive supplies you with a photograph of a painting & licenses you to use it in only specified circumstances (one-time use, print-only or also digital, etc.).

Of course, as Patrick suggests, once things are published digitally ... it's the wild west as far as re-use goes. Not supposed to be, but it is.
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2021, 12:05:53 AM »
 ::) ::)...Again,....As for me,... I don't care what anyone does with pix they take of my "Old & Crusty" guns (should I be ashamed that they aren't brass PA rifles, ??) , or my display,.. when someone takes photos,... they are public domain as far as I'm concerned, and can use in any way for eternity,... future owner must accept that and be glad someone likes the rifle enough to study the photo,... Folks can do what they want,.. but personally I don't mind,... Guess I will never share photos of the shows I set-up at again,...sure don't want any hurt feelings,... !!!... BTW,... I have never disclosed ownership of anyone's rifle that I photo or post,...

Offline Stoner creek

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2021, 12:12:08 AM »
So again, I introduce the issue:  someone allows you to take photos of a piece and allows you to do what you wish with them.  Then years later, the owner passes or auctions the gun.  Are you obligated to contact the new owner or auction house?  I don't think so.  That's just nuts.
I’m with you EK.
  I think the lawyers have us right where they want us, scared to do anything without hiring them for their advice.
 FWIW, anyone asking to photograph any of my stuff is welcome to do so and do with their images what they will. I’m only the temporary curator of this stuff. I own a rifle from RCA #1 how many pictures of it are floating around out there? I don’t care!!
 We are a surprisingly small group of people. If someone did something like absconding a piece out of a collection (particularly contemporary pieces), everyone with the wherewithal and funds to buy it would already know that something ain’t right. The other thing about all of us is that we have a conscience and would deal with something sideways accordingly.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 12:15:38 AM by Stoner creek »
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Offline Cades Cove Fiddler

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2021, 12:35:43 AM »
 :)... 100% Wayne,... I only know of a couple collectors who I like & respect, but don't want photos taken,... think it strange, but if that's what they want,...??? ... most collectors I have found to be hospitable and sharing with their knowledge, and I've been doing this for almost 50 years,... It's collectors like you who make our hobby enjoyable,... CCF   

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2021, 12:37:34 AM »
It's been my experience amongst the flintlock collecting community that lawyers and legal issues never really play into it.  Seriously - who the heck is going to spend the time and money to sue someone over some photos?  Lame.  And a gigantic waste of $$$ and time.  Does money grow on trees?  Not for anyone I've ever met.  And what would be REALLY interesting to me would be someone trying to provide a valid legal description of damage.  But I'm no lawyer.

In reality, publishing photos which were proffered for private use generally just leads to bad 'word of mouth' and one never being permitted to take photos of anything again as the collecting fraternity is relatively small and word spreads quickly.  And to my mind, being blacklisted in that way is some serious s**t in our little corner of the world.
Strange women lying in ponds, distributing swords, is no basis for a system of government!

Offline Majorjoel

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #30 on: March 07, 2021, 07:55:47 PM »
I have already shared my photos of rifles I have owned with our ALR Bruce Miller Library.   

It sometimes seems like the library is overlooked these days.  I have also taken a lot of photos of some very fine and rare pieces over the years that I had permission to share because the longrifles were up for sale by the owners and wanted me to put them out there to the very folks that had the most interest along with current market values of said pieces.   

Now after a few years, I still enjoy my photos and pretty much keep them to myself as I'm pretty sure they are in other collections today.
Joel Hall

Offline spgordon

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2021, 08:06:14 PM »
It's been my experience amongst the flintlock collecting community that lawyers and legal issues never really play into it.  Seriously - who the heck is going to spend the time and money to sue someone over some photos?  Lame.  And a gigantic waste of $$$ and time.  Does money grow on trees?  Not for anyone I've ever met.  And what would be REALLY interesting to me would be someone trying to provide a valid legal description of damage.  But I'm no lawyer.

I may be wrong, but I think $$$ (though not lawyers) is central to all of this. In many cases, we are talking about very valuable objects in private hands--objects that regularly change hands by sale or auction. Surely one reason to control who sees an object and what images of it circulate are to prevent discoveries that would lower the value of the object. The archives of this list contain quite a few discussions that had the potential to lower (or raise) the value of the rifle, if, say, an attribution to a well-known maker were strongly disputed or disproved.

This is why (as Bob L. has listened patiently to me say many times over the last decade, without ever hanging up on me) the "research" on rifles (largely in private hands) is such a different process than research on other types of material culture that are mostly in museums.

Generally speaking, anybody has access to an item in a museum or historical society and nothing constrains one's assessment of it. When an object is in private hands, the owner controls access and, by controlling access, constrains what gets said. Who is going to debunk an attribution of a high-valued rifle when one likely consequence is that one loses access to that and other objects?
Check out: The Lost Village of Christian's Spring
https://christiansbrunn.web.lehigh.edu/
And: The Earliest Moravian Work in the Mid-Atlantic: A Guide
https://www.moravianhistory.org/product-page/moravian-activity-in-the-mid-atlantic-guidebook

Offline WESTbury

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2021, 08:06:46 PM »
It sometimes seems like the library is overlooked these days.

Roger that. There are many fine rifles in the Miller Museum and many answers to the questions I see posted on this forum, even some of my dumb questions, had I taken the pains to research the library.

Kent
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President Lyndon B. Johnson October 21, 1964

Offline Mike Brooks

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #33 on: March 07, 2021, 09:16:11 PM »
Unless you mark your photos with a copy right they are public property, not private property. Wanna be gunbuilders have used my phots of my work for their websites for over 30 years. In those cases I have contacted them and asked them to not use my work as if it was built by them. In all cases it was immediately taken down. There was one fellow "Mike Rooks" from Davenport that was pretty good at miss representing his work.... ;D
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 09:19:15 PM by Mike Brooks »
NEW WEBSITE! www.mikebrooksflintlocks.com
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Offline bama

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #34 on: March 07, 2021, 10:04:59 PM »
Guys I love the idea of a thread to post your rifle or rifles. The post does not say post somebody’s else’s rifle. As long as that’s done there would be no problem.

I did have a collector get upset over some photos that were published via the internet of his rifles that were displayed at my last show. I don’t know how to prevent pictures taken at a public show from being published on the internet especially with everyone taking pictures with a cell phone. 

At the KRA annual show no photography is allowed except for their assigned photographer. This is a private show and not open to the public. Several of the satellite shows are also not open to the public so everyone l think abides by the rule of don’t photograph or publish without permission.

This is much harder to control at a public show especially with our digital world. I would suggest if you are going to display at a public show to have a notice on your table to please not photograph your rifles. Much as we post a do not handle without permission sign.  I will probably post a sign at the entrance door that states “Do not photograph without the owners permission “. I am also going to supply anyone who intends to intends to photograph and publish get written permission from me and the owner of the display.

I feel that in many ways we are our own worst enemies. Collectors as a group sit around and complain about our dwindling numbers but resist opening up our shows and collections to new people. Most of the collectors I know are very generous with their collection but we have some that are not as open. We must honor these collectors and respect their wishes. At the same time we to keep our collections alive and guarantee their future, we must have new collectors. A delicate balance indeed. The internet is a great tool for reaching new collectors as is opening our shows to the public but as I am finding out this is not an easy thing to control. Growth can and often times be painful but without growth at some point in time you will cease to exist. 

I have had a great response from people that I have shared my small collection with and I hope to have had a hand in sparking new interest in my beloved longrifles. 

The ALA museum is a great tool for sharing our rifles amongst ourselves but does little for the outside public.
Jim Parker

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Offline JV Puleo

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #35 on: March 07, 2021, 11:32:10 PM »
Eastwind knows whereof he speaks...
At Man at Arms we regularly take pictures of other people's guns. In fact, we've discovered that it is a lot easier for us to take them than to work with the often poor photographs most authors submit. Even though, technically we own the copyright, we never insist on it. We usually give the owner a disc with all the photos on it and tell them to use them as they see fit. I can think of only one case where we didn't do that. It was a rather ugly situation between the widow of the owner of the material and the author of the book - who was employed by her late husband to do the writing. The widow was entirely in the right and, when it was turned over to the lawyers, it was pointed out to the author that he had no right to the pictures. They appear in the book, but in that case only we specified that the photos remained our property.

Offline Avlrc

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #36 on: March 08, 2021, 01:35:22 AM »
Guys I love the idea of a thread to post your rifle or rifles. The post does not say post somebody’s else’s rifle. As long as that’s done there would be no problem.

I did have a collector get upset over some photos that were published via the internet of his rifles that were displayed at my last show. I don’t know how to prevent pictures taken at a public show from being published on the internet especially with everyone taking pictures with a cell phone. 

At the KRA annual show no photography is allowed except for their assigned photographer. This is a private show and not open to the public. Several of the satellite shows are also not open to the public so everyone l think abides by the rule of don’t photograph or publish without permission.

This is much harder to control at a public show especially with our digital world. I would suggest if you are going to display at a public show to have a notice on your table to please not photograph your rifles. Much as we post a do not handle without permission sign.  I will probably post a sign at the entrance door that states “Do not photograph without the owners permission “. I am also going to supply anyone who intends to intends to photograph and publish get written permission from me and the owner of the display.

I feel that in many ways we are our own worst enemies. Collectors as a group sit around and complain about our dwindling numbers but resist opening up our shows and collections to new people. Most of the collectors I know are very generous with their collection but we have some that are not as open. We must honor these collectors and respect their wishes. At the same time we to keep our collections alive and guarantee their future, we must have new collectors. A delicate balance indeed. The internet is a great tool for reaching new collectors as is opening our shows to the public but as I am finding out this is not an easy thing to control. Growth can and often times be painful but without growth at some point in time you will cease to exist. 

I have had a great response from people that I have shared my small collection with and I hope to have had a hand in sparking new interest in my beloved longrifles. 

The ALA museum is a great tool for sharing our rifles amongst ourselves but does little for the outside public.
Your fifth paragraph down is spot on.   Hard to harvest any crops, when you never planted any seed.

Offline Mark Elliott

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #37 on: March 08, 2021, 02:11:40 AM »
   In the 1960s the Supreme Court ruled that the creator of a work- photographer, musician, writer, etc. owned all rights to his/her work. He/she can do whatever they want with it within legal limits -pornography etc.
If he sells the image to a public entity for their use—a book/ magazine publisher, or digital forum/website, etc. the publisher/website owns half of those rights (in most cases), but his rights are somewhat limited- depending on the agreement between photographer and publisher. Most publications and museums have been through this legal maze and ask for contracts, which should state any limitations such as how long to use (the specific dated book/article, etc.) and one-time -no further use or maybe forever. Coverage - the standard in books, magazines is the publisher buys North American rights. Of course, with digital this gets sticky, and you can’t own International Rights in most cases.
   Example: The ALR forum would own half of your photo, but could not send it to another entity, without your permission. If done properly ALR should create a photog contract outlining such points or at least post them on the site. The courts will consider “previous notice” in such matters. I know this is tough among friends but think of this. By the way, these rules apply to photos whether sold or given free.
You send in a rifle photo you thought you took it but have too many to remember for sure. But you innocently send it to ALR, a publisher or any other public entity.
When it gets published the owner of the photo and maybe the gun sees it and doesn’t like it. Sues both you and ALR. In turn ALR sues you – all because you didn’t have an agreement avoiding such possibility.
   Here’s another: You go to your buddy’s gunroom and photo his gun. You own the physical photo but are not totally free to distribute it, without his permission, because you took it a private situation.
You go to a gunshow and see a gun on the table- you photograph it. You own the photo and, in most cases, can distribute it, because you took it in a public venue. Fact is, you don’t legally have to ask permission, but naturally it is the best thing to do and best to say how you intend to use it – “can I share it” etc.?
   In this world of constant buying and selling of guns, I see a problem that comes up, and probably should be addressed. You photo a gun privately, the owner sells it to someone else or maybe he dies. Can you use it? Probably, if the poor guy is dead. But maybe the next owner doesn’t know you have a photo of his gun and will be unhappy about seeing it in print or online. If you had good solid permission from the original owner, you may be protected against suit. Maybe.
    In 40+ years of publishing books and magazines my favorite case was the lady who sued my magazine and the photographer for showing a photograph, (a large clear color pic), of her husband hugging another women on the boardwalk in Ocean City, Maryland. She claimed it embarrassed her and she wanted the photos, including the out-takes for her legal backup for a divorce.
The judge threw it out of court, because as a publisher of a publicly distributed publication the photographer and I had protected copyrights since the couple was in a public situation. And no, she couldn’t have any of our photos. A hotel room photo of the couple would have been far different.
Moral of story: Get a contract or understanding, think of the worst case, get friendly permission to use photos (in writing if not too obnoxious) and never, never, walk down the boardwalk with anyone but your wife.
Patrick Hornberger

I just wanted to point out that most of the examples here are for editorial use of the photos.   The rules are slightly different for commercial use.   For commercial use (to sell something as in advertising),  the photographer must get a written release from the individual being photographed or the owner of the property being photographed.    Professional photographers are trained/cautioned to always get releases.   Assuming proper releases,  the photographer owns the copyright unless he transfers it, which is unusual for most photographers.   Photographs are licensed to the person paying for them or to the end user with very specific contracts as indicated in the original post.   As a general rule, though,  if you own the gun and you photograph it,  you can do as you like with it whenever you like.

For the gun photographs that i took professionally,  I always licensed them quite generously really only asking for a photo credit when they were published.   That is because there is little to no commercial value to antique firearm photographs.

I will say that among antique gun owners, there was an expectation that permission be obtained to publish (in any way) a photograph of their gun.   There are conventions around photographing antique firearms which are more restrictive than necessarily required by U.S. Copyright law.   My contracts acknowledged that, and for that reason, the vast majority of the great photos I have of antique firearms will never see the light of day.   Unfortunately,  even the ones I am free to publish are not acceptable by the ALR Library due to the rule that the person submitting the photos must own the rifle.  That was the deal made with the owners to get photos.   I wish that were not the case, as I have some much better photographs of some guns in the library.  Oh well.....



Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: Original Rifle Photos
« Reply #38 on: March 08, 2021, 03:16:20 AM »

The ALA museum is a great tool for sharing our rifles amongst ourselves but does little for the outside public.
Just so folks know, our Bruce Miller/ALR museum is viewable by non-members, that is why NO records were ever kept of who contributed the photos.

When Bruce Miller and Dr. Fred Garner approached me about adding the museum, one of the things they wanted was to make sure the photos of original rifles were vetted for accuracy of content and to forever be anonymous as to who the owner was. That way owners did not have to fear they would be targeted by any with motives other than to study original longrifles.
Dennis 

I can not tell you who owns/owned most of the guns in the museum, only a few that I know because I know/knew the owner at the time it was posted and I will not disclose that info.
Dennis
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