Author Topic: Sculpting metal (Read 4656 times)

flatsguide · « **on:** March 08, 2021, 05:21:58 PM »

I was going to ask this on Ron Scott’s post about his exquisite German pistol shown below, but decided to start a new thread that would be specific to the question of high relief metal work. This question is more directed to the folks who remove and shove metal around with a hammer and chisel (pneumatic too). If a chap wanted to sculpt the clamshell on this gun or do any high relief steel work in general, would they use ‘die sinker”s’ chisels? Are they sharpened the same way and with roughly the same geometry as engraving tools.? Jerry mentioned a few times in Ron Scott’s post about the German pistol having the parts in question engraved separately an then soldered on. If they were do you think they were soft soldered or silver soldered, was silver solder even known in the 18th century?
Cheers Richard

Ron Scott · « **Reply #1 on:** March 08, 2021, 10:42:21 PM »

This could be a very long topic. Think metal removal. I would not contemplate soldering . I use 116 degree gravers to do the removal and a variety of hand made punches to shape the forms. Smooth with oil lubed honing stones and final detail with a 96 degree graver.

I suspect you get a number of different ways of doing this. I chose to learn sculpting from Mike Dubber , one of American best Firearms engravers.

jerrywh · « **Reply #2 on:** March 08, 2021, 11:27:47 PM »

Now that I can see this closer I would bet that it is silver soldered on. I have seen several examples of Russian guns with breaches similar to this. I have those photos in my library. Many modern rifles have sight ramps held on in the same manner and it is impossible to tell even under a microscope.
I know Mike Dubber pretty well and he is a superb Engraver and one of the very best in this country. However Every Engraver has his own style that may result in equal results. Among those are Joe Rundell, Ron Smith, Sam Welch, Eric gold, and Alain Lovenberg of Belgium.In my opinion, Joe Rundell is the best sculptor in this country as of now. I don't do too bad. I learned some from most of these guys. In the photo below I silver soldered the shield on the breach before I sculpted the rest of the scrolls and stuff. The temps required to silver solder stuff at the breach end does no harm to the barrel of a black powder gun.
If such high relief applications were not soldered on It would require the removal of a lot of metal for a long distance down the barrel. There is another way. That is the application of a iron inlay or ovewrlay. Many of you would probably say that is impossible but it is not. I learned how from Ron Smith and Frank Hendrix.

There a basically two different methods of sculpting metal. Chiseling and punching. Most use both.
I am going to post some photos of some Russian guns with similar applications.

helwood · « **Reply #3 on:** March 09, 2021, 03:56:47 AM »

Greetings,
This is a fun subject for me right now. I'm just now working on a project from the 2019 class Ron presented. A brace of German pistols with relief carving on the barrels. I thought it's time to give it a try. The hard thing is figuring out what to use on contemporary Steel/alloy. I am using GRS GraverMax and C-MAX Gravers primarily but also anything in the shop that I can think of. Flatsguide, I'm not sure that the 'die sinkers' chisels would be efficient I started with HSS "Glensteel and it worked but was frequently sharpening. The angle I'm using is 55° on my 42 and 39 Flat Gravers. There's still lots to learn but it's a fun project. Later,Hank. Sorry was going to send x2 pics but forgot how.

flatsguide · « **Reply #4 on:** March 09, 2021, 04:30:13 AM »

Thank folks. Helwood have you tried Lindeys 3/32 M42 steel blanks? If one is going to engrave then silver solder as Jerry is talking about, the finished piece might be cut on a free cutting steel lik 12l14 may work well. I know that preferred on screw machines so I don’t know if it comes in plates, maybe only in rod. Post photos of you work too.
Thanks Richard

helwood · « **Reply #5 on:** March 09, 2021, 05:02:52 AM »

Greetings Richard,
M42 is just another HSS. C-MAX is Tungsten Carbide and harder.

flatsguide · « **Reply #6 on:** March 09, 2021, 05:39:43 AM »

Helwood, I made the suggestion for M42 as all HSS are not the same. M42 compared to other HSS is very tough and excels in low speed operation as in engraving. As you said you were “frequently sharpening”
Richard

helwood · « **Reply #7 on:** March 09, 2021, 05:57:33 AM »

The designs were drawn from just looking at photos.
Hank

flatsguide · « **Reply #8 on:** March 09, 2021, 06:51:13 AM »

They are really nice Hank! From the color they look like brass, are they?
Richard

helwood · « **Reply #9 on:** March 09, 2021, 05:40:22 PM »

They are 8620 Steel/alloy. If they were brass there wouldn't be any discussion of how to carve it. Probably the lighting.

helwood · « **Reply #10 on:** March 10, 2021, 06:55:17 AM »

Greetings,
This is a pic of the original brace that Ron had for the class. They really did some amazing work back in the 1730's.

WKevinD · « **Reply #11 on:** March 10, 2021, 07:23:02 AM »

From an old Jaeger

smylee grouch · « **Reply #12 on:** March 10, 2021, 07:33:52 AM »

This was a rather feeble attempt by me some 25-30 years ago.

Front sight made from an inch and a half brass shaft for my 58 flint bear rifle, oct/round barrel

helwood · « **Reply #13 on:** March 11, 2021, 03:40:00 AM »

Sure makes you appreciate the old boys who did the original work. Smylee grouch, I applaud you for trying that 25-30 years ago. Not something most would have tried back then.👍 Hank

smylee grouch · « **Reply #14 on:** March 11, 2021, 04:20:51 AM »

Well thanks Helwood, but it really wasnt that big a deal. If it wouldn't have turned out to something useable I would have just redid it. There was some time involved but the cost of the brass was minimal. Best wishes

flatsguide · « **Reply #15 on:** March 11, 2021, 06:28:33 AM »

Nice job on the unique front sight.
Richard

smylee grouch · « **Reply #16 on:** March 11, 2021, 06:55:31 AM »

Thanks Flatsguide, once I had a basic "bird/eagle" cut out of the shaft I sweat soldered it to the barrel with beak and center tail feather centered on the top dead center line I had on the barrel and once fixed in place I did most of the shaping with needle files etc. I had no plan just cut away what ever didn't look right. It's pretty home boy or folk art but it works and is easy to see.

Daryl · « **Reply #17 on:** March 11, 2021, 07:53:42 AM »

THAT is a really cool sight, Smylee G.

smylee grouch · « **Reply #18 on:** March 11, 2021, 05:10:43 PM »

Thanks Daryl, when I soldered it onto the barrel I got it right on top dead center but when final shaping it on the barrel I got the beak/body off to one side by a couple thousands so it does shoot a couple inches right at about 125 yds but it still works ok for hunting up to reasonable ranges.

helwood · « **Reply #19 on:** March 12, 2021, 04:51:28 AM »

Back in '19 I was getting around to the Wheellock . I decided to try my hand at moving metal. This started out flat sheet brass. It's one of those, been there, done that, and bought the T-shirt . A lot of time. The design was prompted from Master French Gunsmith's design. The thing I discovered is that those designes are really aids to creating your design. And the artist who drew them never could execute the design in metal. But having these designs as a starting point really helps. Hank

flatsguide · « **Reply #20 on:** March 12, 2021, 05:37:30 AM »

That’s stunning metalwork Hank, I really like those figures.
Cheers Richard

smylee grouch · « **Reply #21 on:** March 12, 2021, 06:08:40 AM »

Yes, that looks great. Super. Nice work.

Daryl · « **Reply #22 on:** March 12, 2021, 06:15:13 AM »

Quote from: helwood on March 12, 2021, 04:51:28 AM

Back in '19 I was getting around to the Wheellock . I decided to try my hand at moving metal. This started out flat sheet brass. It's one of those, been there, done that, and bought the T-shirt . A lot of time. The design was prompted from Master French Gunsmith's design. The thing I discovered is that those designes are really aids to creating your design. And the artist who drew them never could execute the design in metal. But having these designs as a starting point really helps. Hank

Really nicely done, Hank - BRAVO!

smart dog · « **Reply #23 on:** March 12, 2021, 03:49:25 PM »

Hi,
Beautiful work Helwood. I don't believe many of those ornate designs in non ferrous metal were chiseled from sheet. My examination of English and some French work shows they were cast and then the details chiseled. Another thing I've learned is chiseling even mild steel is a different ball game than chiseling iron. I much prefer iron. Below are some of my attempts at casting and then chiseling.

dave

flatsguide · « **Reply #24 on:** March 12, 2021, 05:27:36 PM »

Dave thanks for the photos and your thoughts. The photo showing the side plate with your hand and tool, from the shape of the metal chips it looks like you are scraping to remove the metal, true? On the back side of the wrist escutcheon it has a boss with a hole, is the hole threaded and does a bolt go from the trigger plate into the hole? I really like that kind of checkering you did.
Thanks Richard

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Author Topic: Sculpting metal (Read 4656 times)