log rifle question

[Michigan Flinter]

My friend" who has no computer" has a log gun that he can't get to group.This is number onehundred rifle that he has built .he makes everything except the wood,lock and barrel. The barrel is made by a well known maker it is 1 1/4 x48  1-48 twist .40 cal. rifling looks .008 - .010 deep it is breached right and a lead lap shows that it is the same I.D. full length. He has tried balls from .390 to .403 with different lube and patch thichness different size powder and amount with no luck. He is a very good shot and the sights are still lined up with his spotter after the rifle is fired.Does anyone have any suggestions that he might try ? He is about ready to see the spiderman and get it bored and rerifled .Thanks for your help.

[SCLoyalist]

Bummer!  I doubt I can suggest anything you and your friend haven't tried or thought of, but:                             

How big a group size at what range, and is there any pattern to how it blows its group?

Has he tried chronographing some shots to see what sort of variation in velocity he gets shot to shot for various loads?   

What kind of sights does the gun have?  Any chance the sights might shift every few shots?

Is this a caplock or a flinter, and if caplock, has he tried a different cap, like try a CCI #11 instead of a CCI 11M, or vice versa.

I'd go back to square 1, and probably work through a methodical procedure similar to Dutch Schoultz's procedue for working up a load.   Use a chronograph periodically to look for velocity anomalies and recover and examine shot patches.
 
And, it sounds like voodoo, but if I had a load that was getting close to acceptable, I'd try a few shots with a buffer of Cream of Wheat between the powder and the patched ball (about  as much Crm. of Wht as would fill a 38 SPL case).

Good luck.  SCL

[Don Getz]

Eric......what sort of loads has been shooting?   I have a 13/16" straight barreled gun in 40 cal., 1.48" twist that shoots
great, not good enough to win chunk gun matches, but pretty good.    If it were mine, I would try a .395 ball and perhaps
.020 teflon, or even try the dutch schults water soluble oil method, with some real good thick patching.  My little 40 likes
about 50 - 55 grains of FFF.   How much powder is he shooting?.............Don

[northmn]

Like Don I have a 40 that shoots pretty good but is not over the log suitable.  Match barrels are lapped with a lead slug to eliminate tight spots and smooth them up a bit.  It used to be said the difference between a lapped barrel and a non-lapped was a little over 100 shots.  Some barrels seemed to "shoot in" .  About the only thing you have not mentioned is powder brand.  For that type of shooting Swiss seems to dominate.  About the only other thing would be technique as in how he swabs between shots or doesn't.  Daryl uses a wet lube, tight patch and does not swab and swears by it.  When I chronographed I noticed that velocities seemed to actually be more stable by not swabbing.  Bench shooter usually do.  My experiences with small bores show them to be a little more tempermental.

DP

[Michigan Flinter]

Thanks all for your imput . It is a flinter,he has tried all combo's of powder, patch and ball .The barrel and tang are all glassed in the cross pins are not an issue barrel lugs are enlongated for moverment of barrel . A lead lap has been used and the I.D. is as smooth as a babys butt.I will tell him about the cornmeal buffer and trying a heavy wet patch with no wiping betweeen shots.His sights are a set of Paul Griffits spidermatics  .

[northmn]

How big is the touch hole?  Jim Chambers mentioned that some replace the touchhole liners after they get over 1/16 inch.

DP

[Dphariss]

My friend" who has no computer" has a log gun that he can't get to group.This is number onehundred rifle that he has built .he makes everything except the wood,lock and barrel. The barrel is made by a well known maker it is 1 1/4 x48  1-48 twist .40 cal. rifling looks .008 - .010 deep it is breached right and a lead lap shows that it is the same I.D. full length. He has tried balls from .390 to .403 with different lube and patch thichness different size powder and amount with no luck. He is a very good shot and the sights are still lined up with his spotter after the rifle is fired.Does anyone have any suggestions that he might try ? He is about ready to see the spiderman and get it bored and rerifled .Thanks for your help.

Likely some or all this has been done but....
Its likely mechanical.  Has he tried resting at different points on the barrel/forearm?

If its flint the vent MUST be under 1/16".
If percussion change the nipple to a new stainless or steel version NO VENTED NIPPLES. Check that the hammer strikes the nipple perfectly square and flat.
Does he wipe every shot? *Exactly* the same every shot.
Is it a drum and nipple gun?. The flash channel might need cleaning every shot.
Has he tried both hot and standard caps?
Has he tried very dry patches.
Teflon patches shoot well I am told.
Friends have had very good luck with water soluble oil wet patches that are set aside to evaporate all the water.
But they wipe every shot. A friend just shot a 3.9" 10 shot string last month with a 1"x 42 45 caliber GM barrel with 1.5 f swiss, the WS oil on a .010 patch and a .451 ball. The rifle has a "Hawken style" patent breech.

Or oil such as neatfoot soak the patches then press till hardly any oil is left.
Try some FFG and 1.5F Swiss powder if this has not been done
The longer barrel might work better with slower powder.
Has he tried cutting the patches with the ball flush with the muzzle?

Is the crown perfect? How do the fired patches look?


Dan

[LynnC]

Only thing I can think of is barrel may need stress relieving........Lynn

[Roger Fisher]

This is doggone interesting and I have little to suggest that hasn't been already.

One thingee we assume the barrel was new or was she used....?  Could that barrel if she be used have the muzzle belled?

Also last thing would be to unbreach the B        lay the barrel in the spring muzzle downstream and let the evil spirits run out.  Must be at full moon on a clear night and best at midnite and better still if you visit the pow wow lady just before....

Been there myself with a used barrel and after 3 mons I finally cut the muzzle back over an inch and then she shot!  Luckily I had built her as a half stock.

[bob in the woods]

I know this may sound crazy, but I had a .45 that had a couple thousand shots through it, a flinter.
Crown was good, touch hole fine. It started to open up groups. I went to a larger ball and it helped, but somewhere I read that the bore might be  " too polished"  , so I actually ran a bit of abrasive through the barrel  nd she tightened right up. Don't know why, but it worked.

[northmn]

I know this may sound crazy, but I had a .45 that had a couple thousand shots through it, a flinter.
Crown was good, touch hole fine. It started to open up groups. I went to a larger ball and it helped, but somewhere I read that the bore might be  " too polished"  , so I actually ran a bit of abrasive through the barrel  nd she tightened right up. Don't know why, but it worked.

I read that theory many years ago in Muzzle Blasts I think.  Possible  

DP

[Roger Fisher]

I know this may sound crazy, but I had a .45 that had a couple thousand shots through it, a flinter.
Crown was good, touch hole fine. It started to open up groups. I went to a larger ball and it helped, but somewhere I read that the bore might be  " too polished"  , so I actually ran a bit of abrasive through the barrel  nd she tightened right up. Don't know why, but it worked.

Yes, J-B bore paste!!!

[northmn]

One other rather obvious thing I have not seen mentioned.  The ball used Are they being weighed and sorted   Even swaged ball can have voids.  This is a given with bench shooters.

DP

[Michigan Flinter]

The balls are weighted , new barrel ,new touch hole liner, crown is good,sights are solid . Good anticant block and chunk to set the rifle. My friend is an very good shot"been to the York Shoot Three times and has takrn home a big chunk of meat each time"Going to try some cream of wheat. very wet patch and see if that helps. Thanks for all the sugestions

[Nate McKenzie]

I hate to mention this but I read somewhere that years ago if the barrel was too glass-smooth they would urinate in it and let it sit overnight to restore accuracy. Anyone else ever hear of this?

[Roger Fisher]

I hate to mention this but I read somewhere that years ago if the barrel was too glass-smooth they would urinate in it and let it sit overnight to restore accuracy. Anyone else ever hear of this?

Heck yes, my offhander got extra slick and started shooting low at 100 yds
It's called taking her out behind the barn/outhouse!!!   Plugged her up, poured (after all she is only a .45 caliber left her sit around an hr or more poured it out and wiped dry -  Barbara had been asking what that yellow stuff was in the jar on her washer....   It helped but only temporary! The J-B bore paste operation lasts longer!

[Dphariss]

Only thing I can think of is barrel may need stress relieving........Lynn

That was something I thought of while out in the shop but a couple of hours too late I see.
But finding someone that can controlled atmosphere anneal a barrel this long might be tough. Might be able to cryo it.

Dan

[rdillon]

I would just rebore it or try another barrel at this point.

Some just won't shoot no matter what you do.

[T*O*F]

Eric,
I've run across this in the past.  For some unknown reason a guy can't hit diddly with his gun, even though he is an experienced shooter.

Go to the range with him and YOU shoot the gun as though it were your own.  Follow your own intuition as to what load, lube, etc. to use.  Don't listen to what he has already done.  See how it shoots for you.

I had a flint gun I couldn't get to group anyplace other than low and right, regardless of where I moved the sights.  I took a novice caplock shooter to the range who was visiting.  He had never shot a flinter before and proceeded to hit the black with it every time he shot.  I tried it and shot low and left again.  There was some voodoo between me and that gun........never did figure it out and sold the gun.