a couple of questions

[Flinter]

I will ask these questions one at a time. Ron Scott is going to build me a Bonewitz copy or bench copy. Henry (HIB board member) sent me 21 photos of the Bonewitz rifle I had in mind to build, lucky so far. In one of the photos was a picture of the lock. My... I thought! There is no touch hole liner. I e-mailed Henry and inquired about the subject, and he said that the Bonewitz rifles he has examined did not have liners. For this reason, I feel the touch hole liner is contemporary for a fast ignition. I like the idea of a delay in the ignition. Since the original rifles were built without a liner (I think) and I like the delay, I will more than likely have the rifle built with a proper drilled hole. Would you guys give your input on this, good or bad?

Mike

[Robert Wolfe]

A liner is not necessary. I don't use them and don't feel like I have to put up with a delay in ignitiion. You just has to size the vent correctly. You can also cone the vent hole from the inside. A properly designed vent liner surely speeds ignitiion time but is it enough to make a difference in your shooting? Probably not for mine.  If you want one - put it in. If you don't - don't.

[ChipK]

Your rife so the choice is yours to make it what you want.  A liner will speed up ignition and help to prevent the touch hole from enlarging because liner metal is harder that barrel metal. 

If you do not want a liner I am certain Ron would be glad to build it without one.  With or without a liner if Ron is putting it together for you it will be a magnificent piece of contemporary art.

[David Rase]

Mike,  I bet that further investigation would reveal that the touch hole was coned from the inside using a tool similar to the one below.  I doubt that "delayed ignition" would of been an acceptable work practice for a tool that your life depended upon.
DMR

[northmn]

Were I  not to use a liner I would be very careful of the material I used for a vent pick.  I sometimes wonder if liners burn out or get reamed out.  I use brass for a pick, but I used to know some that liked welding tip cleaners.

DP

[Ron Scott]

Hi  Dave,

You like to live on the edge. A post like this will have an avalanche of folks wanting to buy your reamer!  In any event, I had given this option some thought. I'll give you a call  to discuss another barrel inlet.

Ron

[Acer Saccharum]

Dave, where can I buy one of those coning tools?   

[Roger Fisher]

You like the delay - Holy Canolies   I do know the neighbor lady does

Regards the vent pickin, I had used a copper wire pick that ended up roughed up from use to the point it was working like a file.  Needless to say she started to shoot low and lost 2 f out of the vent liner.  Happily she had a liner (the rifle not the neighbor lady!) so I r/r the liner and now seldom use a pick....!

[JTR]

Flinter,
You’re correct in assuming that touch hole liners are a modern day contraption.
After a good many years of being around original rifles, I’ve never seen a barrel with a liner similar to a modern one.
Now, some barrels have had liners screwed into them to reduce the size of the burned out original touch hole, but these are always small, usually only about 1/8” outside diameter or so.
Some Euro guns had gold lined pans and touch holes, but American guns seem to just have a simple drilled hole.
I’m not saying that there was Never an American gun made with a touch hole liner similar to a modern one, just that I’ve never seen one.
John 

[Flinter]

Robert, the people that have handed my AK to for them to shoot I said, It is Russian made and it does not have a safety.” So far, no one has expected a safety, and each one has jerked when the trigger was pulled. A smooth follow through while shooting a firearm has never been a problem for me. I like your Idea, "If you want one…”

Chip, your comment brings up another question. I am 56 years old, so will a drilled hole last me a life time. I feel it should.  Ron said that either way was fine with him. Thanks for the complement on Ron’s work. No matter how fine the rifle looks, it will not be a safe queen. Even with that in mind, the touch hole drilled rifle should last me a lifetime.

Oh my! Was that a tool used by the old timers David? Also, has anyone seen a rifle with this type of an inward metal relieved touch hole?


Mike

[SCLoyalist]

Mike,  I bet that further investigation would reveal that the touch hole was coned from the inside using a tool similar to the one below.

I vaguely remember an article, probably in Muzzle Blasts, years and years ago about coning vents.  Some were coned from the pan side, and some from the inside.  Those coned from the inside either used a tool similar in function to the one David shared, but others were internally coned by drilling through the opposite side barrel flat to access the inside of the vent.   Then the access hole was threaded and a screw inserted, giving you an off-lock side cleanout screw.

[rich pierce]

Chambers sells liners made of barrel steel.  They are not noticeable.

[frogwalking]

SC Loyalist,

Every time the subject of internal coning comes up I wonder why they didn't just drill through the opposite side, cone the flash hole, thread the access hole and plug with a screw.  The screw does not need to be as large as a drum, so should not appreciably weaken the barrel.  I am glad someone else broached the subject.

[Larry Pletcher]

With the experiments we did this summer, the main advantage of liners was when the shooter shot the gun dirty.  If the (cylinder hole) vent was properly maintained, the difference was measurable but not detected by human senses. 

For example if we cleaned the vent religiously, the times for the straight hole fell in the same range as the liner.  If we did no cleaning what so ever the liner had a distinct advantage.  If  I were to do without a liner on my Lancaster, I would use at least a .067 hole so I could use a pipe cleaner.  Handled that way you won't notice the difference.  Vent care (read clean) is the key to speed.

Regards,
Pletch
PS the fastest vent we timed this summer was a cylinder hole vent with a .100" diameter.  Estreeeemly quick, but obviously no would shoot near you.  (I tested it, but don't recommend it.)

[Flinter]

If I can get around it, I will not use a pick. Have you guys thought about a pipe cleaner?

Ron, I sent you a PM.

Roger that would be yes. Mind ya, not as slow as a match lock though. Oh, the Old Lady likes a slow ignition too, but I fixed that problem. If you are interested, I’ll PM you. For some reason, a metal vent pic makes me nervous. A pipe cleaner will easily go into a 1/32nd hole. The author of “Recreating the American Longrifle” recommends 1/16 for 3fg and 5/64th for 2fg.

John, I wonder why the old gunsmiths did not do this. I knew my rifle would have a liner until Henry sent me some photos.

SCLoyast, in the book “Recreating the American Longrifle” the author suggested a way of coning from the outside.

I don’t know rickprice. I plan on having this rifle built like it came out of a 1775 to1810 gunsmith shop. The next one will be different.

Hey frogwalking, I’m on a need to know to know basis. Although I probably have already made up my mind, I would like some impute, so thinks guys. 

Mike

[J. Talbert]

There's a board member who makes an nice little bit for coning the touch hole from the inside out. He took some orders for these at the CLA, but I'll let him decide if he wants to publicize it on here. That may bring about more demand than he's interested in.  I will say that I got one from him and looks just fine.  I haven't used it yet but I have seen the result from his own, and I can't wait to give it a try.

As far as vent liners on old originals... there were, of course, some fine European guns with gold swaged vent liners.  I know of a couple contemporary guns made with these also.

Jeff

PS:  Larry's post, which he was apparently writing the same time  I was,  brings up something that I've come to take for granted.  With a coned-on-the-inside vent liner I never routinely clean between shots.  Granted, I don't hold any records at Friendship either, but for the level of competition that I've participated in for years, I generally clean once, at the end of the shoot,  and my reliability is great.  If it wasn't, I wouldn't still be shooting the same gun after 30+ years.

[James Rogers]

There's a board member who makes an nice little bit for coning the touch hole from the inside out. He took some orders for these at the CLA, but I'll let him decide if he wants to publicize it on here.

I sure would like one.
PM me?

[Roger Fisher]

If I can get around it, I will not use a pick. Have you guys thought about a pipe cleaner?

Ron, I sent you a PM.

Roger that would be yes. Mind ya, not as slow as a match lock though. Oh, the Old Lady likes a slow ignition too, but I fixed that problem. If you are interested, I’ll PM you. For some reason, a metal vent pic makes me nervous. A pipe cleaner will easily go into a 1/32nd hole. The author of “Recreating the American Longrifle” recommends 1/16 for 3fg and 5/64th for 2fg.

John, I wonder why the old gunsmiths did not do this. I knew my rifle would have a liner until Henry sent me some photos.

SCLoyast, in the book “Recreating the American Longrifle” the author suggested a way of coning from the outside.

I don’t know rickprice. I plan on having this rifle built like it came out of a 1775 to1810 gunsmith shop. The next one will be different.

Hey frogwalking, I’m on a need to know to know basis. Although I probably have already made up my mind, I would like some impute, so thinks guys. 

Mike

 Well does a bear do it in the woods?  Course I'm interested....

[Don Getz]

Unless I am mistaken, Mark Wheland did some great restoration work on Henry"s Bonewitz, and while he had it in his
posession he did a bench copy of it......a great one too.   I can't answer about the touch hole liner, I don't know if he added one or not.   I built a lot of guns without liners, and never really noticed any delay.   After getting the barrel business and having access to a good milling machine, I have been installing liners on my guns.  It makes me feel good
to look in that hole and see little grains of powder only 1/16" away from the pan powder.........Don

[RobertS]

Someone else may have already mentioned this, and I may have missed it, but my thought is that you can always build it without the liner, and then decide to install one later.  Anybody know any reason not to do so?

[Flinter]

Guys, my wife and I are going to Hot Springs for a couple of days.

Roger, on the Old Lady... I will PM you a little humor.
 
I will make some post replies when I return.

Mike

[Dphariss]

With the experiments we did this summer, the main advantage of liners was when the shooter shot the gun dirty.  If the (cylinder hole) vent was properly maintained, the difference was measurable but not detected by human senses. 

For example if we cleaned the vent religiously, the times for the straight hole fell in the same range as the liner.  If we did no cleaning what so ever the liner had a distinct advantage.  If  I were to do without a liner on my Lancaster, I would use at least a .067 hole so I could use a pipe cleaner.  Handled that way you won't notice the difference.  Vent care (read clean) is the key to speed.

Regards,
Pletch
PS the fastest vent we timed this summer was a cylinder hole vent with a .100" diameter.  Estreeeemly quick, but obviously no would shoot near you.  (I tested it, but don't recommend it.)

Accuracy will also suffer.

Dan

[northmn]

If I can get around it, I will not use a pick. Have you guys thought about a pipe cleaner?
Mike

You aren't going to get around it.  For a flintlock the vent pick is about as essential as the ramrod.  I even stick mine in the vent when I load.  Others have mentioned using a.07 hole #50 drill.  This will cause some leakage with 3f unless a pick is place in the hole.  I also get fewer flashes in the pan with a pick placed in the vent before loading.  I leave it in until the ball is seated.  Just find a fairly soft material that does not ream out the touch hole.  It really does not have to fit that tight.


DP

[J. Talbert]

Here's a picture of Tom Snyder's little touch hole tool.   

To use it; the bit is held in the barrel thru the breech while the shaft is insert thru the touch hole and threaded into the bit. 
The bit is then turned in an electric drill with plenty of cutting oil while pulling it from the inside out.

Simple but effective.

Jeff

[Flinter]

Don, Henry helped me out a lot on the Bonewitz rifle I want to build. He said someone built him a Bonewitz, and I figured that was Mark. I plan on building this rifle without a liner. When my wife asks me why I want another flintlock, all I have to do is say I need one with a touch hole liner.

 Robert, I thought of that, but I would rather have a different type/school of flintlock built. Although I cannot say for sure, another one is in the making.

Dphariss, The only thing I am concerned about is reliability, and I feel like that has already been cleared up.

Dp, although I have been shooting black powder rifles since 1978, I have never shot a flintlock. I know I will have a lot to learn.

Dang Jeff, that tool has got to be tiny. I feel that if the burs on the inside are removed, everything will be fine. I have complete confidence in Ron and his work.

Mike